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<blockquote data-quote="Andor" data-source="post: 4334471" data-attributes="member: 1879">PHB pg 55/56 under accessories. &quot;If you have a proficiency bonus to attack rolls and damage rolls&nbsp; from your weapon or an enhancement bonus to your attack rolls and damage rolls from a magic weapon or implement, you add that bonus when you use a power that has the associated keyword.&quot;That rule is why Pact daggers explicitly don't give you the +3 proficiency bonus to hit when useing them as an implement. Same deal with the Holy AvengerStaves however are quite explicitly also both weapons and implements and they do not have any such exception built in. Neither does the Spiral Tower wizard PP btw. So normal proficiency bonus and extras like the kensai PP and weapon focus certainly count. It couldn't be clearer.And please don't ever try using &quot;It doesn't make sense&quot; in a 4e arguement. Sense got left off in the parking lot. :/</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Andor, post: 4334471, member: 1879"] PHB pg 55/56 under accessories. "If you have a proficiency bonus to attack rolls and damage rolls from your weapon or an enhancement bonus to your attack rolls and damage rolls from a magic weapon or implement, you add that bonus when you use a power that has the associated keyword." That rule is why Pact daggers explicitly don't give you the +3 proficiency bonus to hit when useing them as an implement. Same deal with the Holy Avenger Staves however are quite explicitly [i]also[/i] both weapons and implements and they do not have any such exception built in. Neither does the Spiral Tower wizard PP btw. So normal proficiency bonus and extras like the kensai PP and weapon focus certainly count. It couldn't be clearer. And please don't ever try using "It doesn't make sense" in a 4e arguement. Sense got left off in the parking lot. :/ [/QUOTE]

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