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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Hawken" data-source="post: 4861554" data-attributes="member: 23619">"Just the price you pay" seems to be an ongoing mantra for you, Arkhandus. Your attitude about LA is pretty much the same, while that is deficient like the saves. Multiclassing already has its drawbacks without having to hose Saves. The poor LA rules don't matter as long as you don't play a race with an LA. The problem with saves doesn't matter as long as you don't multiclass. But if you want to do either of those things, you have to 'pay' because the writers didn't do even a passable job at defining those situations. That's bunk!In the case of saves, since that's what this thread is about, the quickest and easiest fix is to make the +2 bonus to good saves a one time thing for the character's 1st level class and adopt a fractional (or decimal) progression (round down) for saves. The only thing to decide is what fraction/decimal value to give the saves. Good saves, 1/2 or 0.5 sure. But for Poor saves; 3/9, or 0.33334; whatever 1 point per 3 levels comes out to. (On a side note, Kerrick makes a good argument for 4/10 or .4 for Poor saves). Problem solved. Case closed.The system for multiclassing when it comes to BAB and Saves--they are basically the same, values that increase at a fixed rate over a number of levels was not completed. If it was, this topic would never have come up. For all the suckers that think "that's the price to pay", they deserve to get stuck with the shorter end of the straw. Not anyone who thinks the situation through. The price that is paid when multiclassing is quite simple; multiclassing.A fighter that multiclasses pays:--reduced fighting skill (slower BAB progression) --reduced stamina (lower HD = fewer hp)--reduced combat options (fewer bonus feats)--likely reduced sturdiness (probable slower Fort save progression)--diminished use of acquired abilities (a rogue or wizard cannot fight like a fighter)--likely inability to use same type of armor, shield and weapons.In return, he may get:--slightly more skills (maybe)--slight increase in Ref or Will save (at the likely expense of a reduced Fort save)--previously unavailable class abilitiesThe trade-off is the same for just about any class going into any other class. New abilities are gained, but doing so reduces the effectiveness of ALL abilities. A Ftr 5/Wiz 3 cannot fight on the same level as a Ftr 8 even though both are 8th level characters. Sure, he could put on the armor, take out the weapons and go mix it up, but doing so eliminates 3 levels worth of powers and abilities. That same person is also nowhere near as useful as a Wiz 8. Sure, he gets a few spells, but these are going to have minimal, if any, effect on 8th level monsters. And at higher levels its worse! That wiz 18 that took 2 levels of fighter for a couple of feats and some extra HD/BAB is going to have some problems against a Wiz 20. And that Fighter 18 that dipped into Rog 2 for skills and evasion is going to have problems with a Ftr 20 that has more BAB, HP, Fort and an extra feat. There are already plenty of drawbacks to multiclassing. Making save (and BAB) progressions worse doesn't need to be and shouldn't be part of it.</blockquote>

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