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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Arkhandus" data-source="post: 4875339" data-attributes="member: 13966">Now that's just rude.I've tried to provide an argument that multiclass saves aren't really broken, and I've provided examples, and I mentioned that if they are going to alter multiclass saves anyway, they should at least alter multiclass BAB and such as well to keep things even rather than just screwing multiclass PCs by taking away one slight advantage they get in exchange for their lesser focus/potency.  Also, for reference, you can look for more stuff in Unearthed Arcana for possible fixes to the multiclass caster problem; I *think* I remember the Magic Rating option or one of the others giving mention for non-caster classes counting partially towards Magic Rating, which functions as caster level and such.My multiclass monk had a Reflex of around +14 or so, but I don't feel like starting up OpenRPG just to double-check his sheet for the exact value.  His Fortitude and Will were around +16 or so.  He rolled low, sure, but not terribly; the spellcasters' save DCs are just really high at upper levels of the game when they focus on making themselves into potent casters.  With save DCs in the mid-20s or so at 13th-level or thereabouts, a +14 is only around a 50/50 chance of success, give or take 5 or 10% depending on the individual caster you face.  Had my PC died to a lich, he would've been no more likely to pass his saves than against the party's own mages, he might very well have had an even harder time because of a lich's bonuses and likely high level!  Sure, my monk had a slightly better chance of surviving a lich's spell than the other PCs, but not a drastically better chance.  Also, you just ignore the fact that a pure monk would have similar, if not better, overall saves anyway than a multiclass character.  A pure monk would fair as well or better against a lich than some multiclass mess like my PC was.Multiclass save bonuses as they stand are not that broken, if they're even broken at all (which I don't think they are, for my part), and I'd rather see YOU provide some evidence to the contrary rather than just harping on me for no good reason when I'm actually trying to provide examples and EXPLAIN my reasoning/math like a civilized individual.And you're significantly downplaying the importance of the benefits powerful races get in exchange for their Level Adjustments, just poo-pooing them as insignificant eventually regardless of the fact that they don't drop in numerical bonus and the fact that they are major at low to middle levels, not something to be offset by simply allowing the overpoweredness and just slightly delaying the PC at each level so he or she doesn't regain an equal level with the rest of the party until after a few battles into that level.  Half-Celestials etc. are flat-out better than Gray Elves and such, let alone plain old High Elves, while Half-Ogres and Minotaurs and such are flat-out better than half-orcs and humans and dwarves.They need some kind of balancing factor, and Level Adjustment is that balancing factor, even if you have to implement a minor houserule for some nonstandard races to make them fit their Level Adjustment better rather than being somewhat underpowered compared to what LA WotC gave them.Think dark elves suck for their LA?  Lower their LA to +1 or give them one effective level of wizard or cleric spellcasting, which stacks with any actual levels in the classes, or give them some added spell-like abilities based on their character level like Half-Celestials and Half-Fiends get; maybe you give dark elves Blink at 3rd-level, Phantasmal Killer at 7th-level, Cloudkill at 11th-level, and Shades at 15th-level?  Maybe you lower Half-Ogres' LA to +1 like it was in 3.0 and simply give them the reach of a Medium creature?  Or whatever.  And I'm only using those two races as examples because they're among the more-common +LA races I've seen in play.  Maybe half-dragons deserve their LA lowered by 1 point, and/or deserve to have more frequent use of their breath weapon?  Whatever.But simply replacing LA with some broken "I don't care if your PC is uber for half the campaign (or the entire campaign if it's likely to be a typical, short low-level or mid-level campaign), go ahead and I'll just hold you back from gaining each *new* level until after the other guys have gotten to enjoy that new level for one or two battles before you totally eclipse them again" option is, to put it nicely, not a good idea.  If you're going to replace it, you darn well should replace it with something that maintains the worthwhileness of standard races compared to the stronger races, not just making a token effort at giving the illusion of fairness (or something that just provides temporary fairness between periods of blatant overpoweredness for the nonstandard races) to players of the standard races.</blockquote>

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