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*Pathfinder & Starfinder
Multiclassing Feats & Powers
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<blockquote data-quote="Zelc" data-source="post: 4327187" data-attributes="member: 40496"><p>On the other hand, having British Pounds won't buy you many hamburgers in China. You can choose to buy stuff only in the UK, or you could buy stuff both in the UK and China and pay the bank a spread on the foreign exchange rate. Want to enjoy the benefits of living in London while buying stuff at lower costs directly from China? You can do it, but not at the "fair" exchange rate. It'll cost you <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />.</p><p></p><p>Similarly, in 4e, gaining access to more options will cost you. You can argue that the cost is too high (I disagree, as below).</p><p></p><p>(I'm not saying you're British, the example just doesn't work as well with USD.)</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Your characterization is misleading since you disproportionately skew the numbers towards utility powers. "Just 3 spells" is more than you think, when you consider it's 2 out of 10 or 2 out of 8 depending on whether you count the at-wills. Let me illustrate.</p><p></p><p>At level 20, a non-human will have 2 at-wills, 4 encounter attacks, 4 daily attacks, and 7 utility powers. A single-classed character will have the following powers from his main class: 2 at-wills, 3 encounter attacks, 3 daily attacks, and 5 utility powers.</p><p></p><p>Now let's consider a multiclassed character that takes a normal paragon path and all three power swap feats. Those three powers make up 1/4, 1/4, and 1/7 (14%) of his encounter, daily, and utility powers respectively. If we look at non-paragon path non-epic destiny powers, you've replaced 1/3, 1/3, and 1/5 of your main class's powers. 33% is quite a lot, no?</p><p></p><p>Now let's consider the multiclassed paragon path character. He'll have 1/2, 1/2, and 2/7 (or 2/6 if you don't consider the epic destiny one) of his encounter, daily, and utility powers from his second class. Additionally, 1/2 of his at-will powers (1/3 if human) will be from his second class as well.</p><p></p><p>Let's suppose you can replace 2 encounter powers while taking a normal paragon path. With the multiclass + normal paragon path character, you'll only have 1 encounter power from your main class (25%), 2 encounter powers from your secondary class (50%), and 1 encounter power from your paragon path (25%). Whoa, now you're powers are shifting more towards your second class than your first class! The danger here is that you can essentially mostly have the powers of class #2 while enjoying the class benefits of class #1, which can make balancing extremely difficult.</p><p></p><p>I also think that feats required for power swapping is necessary. Otherwise, the multiclass feat is way too powerful.</p><p></p><p>Finally, it is impossible to access most of another class's class features. I think this should stay this way since combinations of class features can be extremely good (hey, hunter's quarry AND sneak attack!). If you really want multiclassing to add more class features, consider adding something like this to paragon multiclassing:</p><p></p><p>At level 11 and 16, if you could normally use it once per encounter, you gain one extra use of the power gained from your multiclass feat per encounter. If you could normally use it once per day, you gain one additional use of the power per day at level 11 and it becomes a one use per encounter at level 16.</p><p></p><p>I'm worried this could make the warlock and wizard benefit truly at-will (how many encounters will you need more than 3 uses of one at-will power?). An alternative would be to change the level 11 benefit to gaining certain class features for the encounter when you spend an action point. Maybe Healing Lore, Combat Superiority, Paladin Channel Divinity, 1x Hunter's Quarry with the normal duration, Rogue Tactics (pick which one at level 11, it doesn't change), 1x Warlock's Curse that lasts the encounter, Commanding Presence (pick which one at level 11, it doesn't change) and Arcane Implement Mastery for the encounter (pick one at level 11, it doesn't change). And there's also the one extra use of the multiclass feat's power at level 16. A bit more complicated, but it has a bit more variety and avoids the problem I mentioned.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Zelc, post: 4327187, member: 40496"] On the other hand, having British Pounds won't buy you many hamburgers in China. You can choose to buy stuff only in the UK, or you could buy stuff both in the UK and China and pay the bank a spread on the foreign exchange rate. Want to enjoy the benefits of living in London while buying stuff at lower costs directly from China? You can do it, but not at the "fair" exchange rate. It'll cost you :). Similarly, in 4e, gaining access to more options will cost you. You can argue that the cost is too high (I disagree, as below). (I'm not saying you're British, the example just doesn't work as well with USD.) Your characterization is misleading since you disproportionately skew the numbers towards utility powers. "Just 3 spells" is more than you think, when you consider it's 2 out of 10 or 2 out of 8 depending on whether you count the at-wills. Let me illustrate. At level 20, a non-human will have 2 at-wills, 4 encounter attacks, 4 daily attacks, and 7 utility powers. A single-classed character will have the following powers from his main class: 2 at-wills, 3 encounter attacks, 3 daily attacks, and 5 utility powers. Now let's consider a multiclassed character that takes a normal paragon path and all three power swap feats. Those three powers make up 1/4, 1/4, and 1/7 (14%) of his encounter, daily, and utility powers respectively. If we look at non-paragon path non-epic destiny powers, you've replaced 1/3, 1/3, and 1/5 of your main class's powers. 33% is quite a lot, no? Now let's consider the multiclassed paragon path character. He'll have 1/2, 1/2, and 2/7 (or 2/6 if you don't consider the epic destiny one) of his encounter, daily, and utility powers from his second class. Additionally, 1/2 of his at-will powers (1/3 if human) will be from his second class as well. Let's suppose you can replace 2 encounter powers while taking a normal paragon path. With the multiclass + normal paragon path character, you'll only have 1 encounter power from your main class (25%), 2 encounter powers from your secondary class (50%), and 1 encounter power from your paragon path (25%). Whoa, now you're powers are shifting more towards your second class than your first class! The danger here is that you can essentially mostly have the powers of class #2 while enjoying the class benefits of class #1, which can make balancing extremely difficult. I also think that feats required for power swapping is necessary. Otherwise, the multiclass feat is way too powerful. Finally, it is impossible to access most of another class's class features. I think this should stay this way since combinations of class features can be extremely good (hey, hunter's quarry AND sneak attack!). If you really want multiclassing to add more class features, consider adding something like this to paragon multiclassing: At level 11 and 16, if you could normally use it once per encounter, you gain one extra use of the power gained from your multiclass feat per encounter. If you could normally use it once per day, you gain one additional use of the power per day at level 11 and it becomes a one use per encounter at level 16. I'm worried this could make the warlock and wizard benefit truly at-will (how many encounters will you need more than 3 uses of one at-will power?). An alternative would be to change the level 11 benefit to gaining certain class features for the encounter when you spend an action point. Maybe Healing Lore, Combat Superiority, Paladin Channel Divinity, 1x Hunter's Quarry with the normal duration, Rogue Tactics (pick which one at level 11, it doesn't change), 1x Warlock's Curse that lasts the encounter, Commanding Presence (pick which one at level 11, it doesn't change) and Arcane Implement Mastery for the encounter (pick one at level 11, it doesn't change). And there's also the one extra use of the multiclass feat's power at level 16. A bit more complicated, but it has a bit more variety and avoids the problem I mentioned. [/QUOTE]
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