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<blockquote data-quote="theNater" data-source="post: 4341964" data-attributes="member: 62560"><p>Right, and I think it works fairly well.</p><p></p><p> I'm glad we have the same understanding of the rule here. It shows we can agree on some things, at least.</p><p></p><p>Back to the Wall gives you multiple bonuses conditionally. So, although it is competing with a permanent +2 to a defense, it is better than a conditional +1 to damage. As are the others. That was my point.</p><p></p><p> Again, comparing 4th edition feats to their 3rd edition versions will almost always make them seem very weak. They are different kinds of things, and comparing them directly is unfavorable to the 4th edition feats.</p><p> </p><p> Right. Quick draw is one of the rare occasions when a 4th edition feat is more powerful than its 3rd edition counterpart. The rules have been changed in a way that makes it stronger, changing them back will make it weaker again.</p><p></p><p> Okay, lets consider Bob the fighter. He's a level 4 fighter, and with no weapon or shield he's got an AC of 19 and a reflex defense of 15. He likes axes, so his level 1 feat was Weapon Focus: Battleaxe or Weapon Focus: Greataxe, depending on which he uses. Damage amounts below do not include strength bonuses, which will be the same across the board.</p><p></p><p>With a greataxe, he has AC 19, reflex 15, and 1d12 + 1(avg. 7.5) damage.</p><p></p><p>With a battleaxe and a heavy shield, he has AC 21, reflex 17, and 1d10 + 1(avg 6.5) damage.</p><p></p><p>If he takes both two-weapon feats, then uses a battleaxe with a handaxe, he has AC 20, reflex 16, and 1d10 + 2(avg 7.5) damage.</p><p></p><p>The two-weapon feats cost a little, but they give him a happy medium between the defense-priority fighter and the offense-priority fighter. Also, he has a ranged weapon readied at all times and suffers none of the check penalties associated with using a heavy shield.</p><p></p><p> While it is true that you rarely get a second attack each round, you do get better attacks, as your training and experience permits you to perform more complicated maneuvers. Higher level powers are significantly better than lower level powers, even if they don't include multiple attacks.</p><p></p><p> Now that's something I can understand. Let me recommend that you give some of those situational bonuses at try. You may find that they grow on you.</p><p></p><p> This is not a part of the game designed to be realistic. As far as I can tell, the reason characters lose old powers as they gain new powers is so that the player never has so many powers that they forget what some of them are. I had a lot of trouble remembering the details of my second level spells by the time I got eighth level spells, because I didn't cast them very often once I had fifth level spells.</p><p></p><p>If it helps, you can think of it in this way: when you reach 13th level, 7th level spells become avaliable to you, along with the special ability that you can use your 1st level spell slot in conjunction with your new 7th level spell slot to get an 8th level spell. The intermediate steps have been removed, and what 4th edition calls 13th level spells are akin to the 8th level spells of 3rd edition. This is not a suggestion from any official source, just an idea I had to make it more palatable.</p><p></p><p> This is actually my point. Without Improved Disarm, disarm attempts were a very bad idea. Without Improved Sunder, sunder attempts were a very bad idea. You were permitted to attempt those special moves, but without the feat were nearly destined to failure. This is what I mean when I say feats controlled what the fighter could do. They didn't control what he could attempt, but what he could achieve.</p><p></p><p>In 3rd edition, you could get a good feel for a fighter's tactics by reading his feat list. In 4th edition, you get that same feel by reading the power list.</p><p></p><p> I did mention that they were more limited, as you have noticed. However, please note that (save ends) is a duration. Spell Focus makes such spells last longer.</p><p></p><p> Astral Fire boosts radiant damage, which is the kind of damage Turn Undead does.</p><p></p><p>Sneak Attack damage is lower than it used to be, but it now works on more targets. Many of the numbers have changed with the edition switch. Rogues still do impressive damage, though, it just comes from powers as much as from sneak attack.</p><p></p><p> Ooh! What character will you be playing in your first game? My first character is a dwarven paladin of Moradin. He's pretty fun.</p><p></p><p> Great Fortitude is situational. It only gives you a bonus if a monster attacks your fortitude defense.</p><p></p><p>Note also that you can pick up neck slot items that increase your defenses in the same way that magical armor increases your AC, and at least some of the powers that increase your AC also increase your other defenses.</p><p></p><p> This is exactly why balance is important. If the wizard is able to stand in the front lines and take the brunt of things while throwing spells, the fighter is superflous. So measures need to be taken to ensure that a character cannot be built with the fighter's ability to take hits and the wizard's ability to toss spells. That's what class balance is all about.</p><p></p><p>You may find that a fighter/wizard works surprisingly well for you in 4th edition. If a fighter goes for a two-handed weapon, he can still soak damage pretty well while dishing out damage pretty significantly. A few wizard powers will give you a handful of solid control options. As a 4th edition fighter/wizard you'd be a better defender than a wizard, a better striker than a wizard, and a better controller than a fighter. Admittedly, you wouldn't be as good a striker as a rogue, as good a defender as a fighter, or as good a controller as a wizard, but if you could be all of those things, that wouldn't be very fair to the single-class players at the table.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="theNater, post: 4341964, member: 62560"] Right, and I think it works fairly well. I'm glad we have the same understanding of the rule here. It shows we can agree on some things, at least. Back to the Wall gives you multiple bonuses conditionally. So, although it is competing with a permanent +2 to a defense, it is better than a conditional +1 to damage. As are the others. That was my point. Again, comparing 4th edition feats to their 3rd edition versions will almost always make them seem very weak. They are different kinds of things, and comparing them directly is unfavorable to the 4th edition feats. Right. Quick draw is one of the rare occasions when a 4th edition feat is more powerful than its 3rd edition counterpart. The rules have been changed in a way that makes it stronger, changing them back will make it weaker again. Okay, lets consider Bob the fighter. He's a level 4 fighter, and with no weapon or shield he's got an AC of 19 and a reflex defense of 15. He likes axes, so his level 1 feat was Weapon Focus: Battleaxe or Weapon Focus: Greataxe, depending on which he uses. Damage amounts below do not include strength bonuses, which will be the same across the board. With a greataxe, he has AC 19, reflex 15, and 1d12 + 1(avg. 7.5) damage. With a battleaxe and a heavy shield, he has AC 21, reflex 17, and 1d10 + 1(avg 6.5) damage. If he takes both two-weapon feats, then uses a battleaxe with a handaxe, he has AC 20, reflex 16, and 1d10 + 2(avg 7.5) damage. The two-weapon feats cost a little, but they give him a happy medium between the defense-priority fighter and the offense-priority fighter. Also, he has a ranged weapon readied at all times and suffers none of the check penalties associated with using a heavy shield. While it is true that you rarely get a second attack each round, you do get better attacks, as your training and experience permits you to perform more complicated maneuvers. Higher level powers are significantly better than lower level powers, even if they don't include multiple attacks. Now that's something I can understand. Let me recommend that you give some of those situational bonuses at try. You may find that they grow on you. This is not a part of the game designed to be realistic. As far as I can tell, the reason characters lose old powers as they gain new powers is so that the player never has so many powers that they forget what some of them are. I had a lot of trouble remembering the details of my second level spells by the time I got eighth level spells, because I didn't cast them very often once I had fifth level spells. If it helps, you can think of it in this way: when you reach 13th level, 7th level spells become avaliable to you, along with the special ability that you can use your 1st level spell slot in conjunction with your new 7th level spell slot to get an 8th level spell. The intermediate steps have been removed, and what 4th edition calls 13th level spells are akin to the 8th level spells of 3rd edition. This is not a suggestion from any official source, just an idea I had to make it more palatable. This is actually my point. Without Improved Disarm, disarm attempts were a very bad idea. Without Improved Sunder, sunder attempts were a very bad idea. You were permitted to attempt those special moves, but without the feat were nearly destined to failure. This is what I mean when I say feats controlled what the fighter could do. They didn't control what he could attempt, but what he could achieve. In 3rd edition, you could get a good feel for a fighter's tactics by reading his feat list. In 4th edition, you get that same feel by reading the power list. I did mention that they were more limited, as you have noticed. However, please note that (save ends) is a duration. Spell Focus makes such spells last longer. Astral Fire boosts radiant damage, which is the kind of damage Turn Undead does. Sneak Attack damage is lower than it used to be, but it now works on more targets. Many of the numbers have changed with the edition switch. Rogues still do impressive damage, though, it just comes from powers as much as from sneak attack. Ooh! What character will you be playing in your first game? My first character is a dwarven paladin of Moradin. He's pretty fun. Great Fortitude is situational. It only gives you a bonus if a monster attacks your fortitude defense. Note also that you can pick up neck slot items that increase your defenses in the same way that magical armor increases your AC, and at least some of the powers that increase your AC also increase your other defenses. This is exactly why balance is important. If the wizard is able to stand in the front lines and take the brunt of things while throwing spells, the fighter is superflous. So measures need to be taken to ensure that a character cannot be built with the fighter's ability to take hits and the wizard's ability to toss spells. That's what class balance is all about. You may find that a fighter/wizard works surprisingly well for you in 4th edition. If a fighter goes for a two-handed weapon, he can still soak damage pretty well while dishing out damage pretty significantly. A few wizard powers will give you a handful of solid control options. As a 4th edition fighter/wizard you'd be a better defender than a wizard, a better striker than a wizard, and a better controller than a fighter. Admittedly, you wouldn't be as good a striker as a rogue, as good a defender as a fighter, or as good a controller as a wizard, but if you could be all of those things, that wouldn't be very fair to the single-class players at the table. [/QUOTE]
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