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Message: <blockquote data-quote="zookeeper" data-source="post: 4344918" data-attributes="member: 70600">If your a single classed caster and the rules say you get 17 powers, so be it.  My problem is with the multiclassed caster only getting 4.  You gat a total of 17 powers for your career, by giving up powers from your primary class (losing power) you should be able to pick up powers from your secondary class (gaining power) effectively balancing out.    Feats were a big part of 3rd ed.  Naturally when looking things over you hit the facts 1) casters (or anyone else) gets 17 powers. 2) Feats are very different from 3rd ed. 3) These tier setup (IMO) really stink. 4) You use different abilities for different attacks and I'm not talking about ranged attacks vs. melee attacks - your melee attacks use different abilities depending on the power used as do ranged attacks. 5) Your limited to a MAX of 3 (or 7) powers from your multiclass depending on your choices at paragon tier. Then there are stupid little things that make no sense at all like - Why does a fighter need CON to swing an axe?  He is using his hands and arms - that sounds like STR to me.  And Multiclassing to Ranger can't take a paragon path. And why some feats were put in the Paragon Tier and/or Epic Tier respectively.   Anyway to sum up - I am not just looking at the feats, but everything overall.  Although I do find myself comparing feats to feats, powers to spells, etc.   This seemed to work (for the most part in 3rd ed) except that you got all the benifits of multiclassing.  Armor Profs, skills, etc.  The balance seemed to be OK. Let me explain: a 5/5 fighter/wizard combo when compared to a single classed fighter or wizard, had the appropriate power. Had the spells that a 5th level wizard could cast (including the number of spells per day), and the STR (we will say) of a 5th level fighter.  Even though he was a total of 10th level his class abilities were limited to the number of levels taken in each class.  And also had the penalties for thing like casting with armor, loss of feats for multiclassing, loss of Attack Bonus, Saving throws, etc.  So the balance seemed to be there.  The overabundance of class features is what was broken with it.  Now it seems like they fixed the class features problem and broke everything else.    The roles were pretty well set in 3rd ed.  The fighter was the tank.  Took the brunt of battle and dished it out also.  Cleric was the main healer and support person through buff spells.  Rogue was the scout, master of skills - he did most of the groups skill based things like bluff, diplomacy, gathering info, etc.  The wizard and ranger were the back line combatants the used ranged spells and attacks on the enemies and dealt mostly with the enemies ranged combatants.  The multiclassed characters would do whatever was needed more at the time  EX: fighter/wizard could either front line as a fighter or back line as a wizard depending on what the situation called for.  I have already said that I am holding final judgement on the system until I have played some to check it out as a whole, but the rules as I read them seem to be very sadly less than expected. I'm not sure either.  This was actually meant as a joke (the weaker character part), But I'm not sure about the overall more powerful term.  I have not played to find out.  Going to be starting a new group soon.    Overall, including the paragon path and epic path feats, then yes there are more, but remember that 7 of the epic feats are the same as one in 3rd ed. (Improved Critical).  And you keep saying that each feat is weaker, doesn't that make the entire feat system weaker overall?  You keep saying this also, and I have said some of the powers look interesting.  The thing is with the powers you seem to become more robotic, walk up use this power and swing, use next power and swing, etc.  There are not that many other things you can do with them, and they only work once per fight (mostly).  Sorry, if I made it sound endless.  The point was if by design or by coincidence (?? not sure of spelling) in 3rd ed, you could possibly get that potion.  In 4th ed you can not.  It is easy to catch 3eism - lol  Yep, the powers sound interesting.  I was talking about 3rd ed and the improved base attack, extra attempts to hit, extra damages from feats, different types of attacks (disarm, sunder, etc), and so on.    If Sam can build two sets of stairs in different buildings, that would be a feat (something special) - lol.  But the point is still there even after building the stairs for 20 years (levels) he still can only build one a day (round).   Maybe, but you still might use burning hands or force orb.  Thats what the feat was for - to eliminate the AoO, so that the opponent could not attack and damage you.  So then it came down to a roll of the dice to see who was disarmed.  But the overall effect is the same always.  It is a burst 2, meaning you can get (I believe) 4 MAX hit and pushed away X squares and immobilized for 1 round.  Then they can come after you again.  You may need to turn them away again.  In 3rd ed. the turned undead moved away and stayed away for 10 rounds.  That left you free to deal with the other enemies (if any) that were not turned or not undead, or to pick off the turned undead one by one without them coming back again.  Yea, I know - but the thing I was trying to get across was the role they played.  I think I did a much better job with that when I answered the post from ryryguy.  I'll keep that in mind.  But do you need to say "I'm preparing this power today"?  I never liked that with the casters that had to pick thier spells to prepare.  Neither did anyone I played with.  So in (3rd ed) We house ruled you knew the spells in your book and could cast any of them, but were still limited to a certain number a day.  True, but then we're back to talking about house rules again.  And if your DM wanted to be a rules lawyer then back to the wall could really suck.  OK - I thought we were talking about a fighter/wizard getting close and personal and casting spells?  My example was about that, not a single wizard class.  A single wizard would have an INT score of 0 or 1 if he got close and personal - lol.  Good Answer, but I still want more powers (wizard that is) lol.</blockquote>

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