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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Cheiromancer" data-source="post: 2233025" data-attributes="member: 141">I've been thinking about this some more, and while I think that the gestalt-2 variant (no feats traded in) is about equal to the masterclass system (no feats traded in), I think there is a discrepancy when feats are traded in.  Consider the following packages:Package Afighter level + wizard level + 2 feats Package Bmaster fighter level + master wizard levelPackage C2 gestalt fighter-wizard levelsIn the master class build you can trade in package A and get package B (when you want 12 master classes instead of only 10).  In the gestalt-2 model you trade in package A and get package C (when you want gestalt levels at odd levels).  Both packages give you a bonus fighter feat and +2 CL in wizard.  Package B gives you +1.5 BAB and (d10+d4) = 8 hp, while package C gives you +2.0 BAB and (d10+d10) = 11 hp.  So Package C is worth a fair bit more than Package B.Now, I have a sneaky suspicion that Package B is probably worth a little more than Package A.  But Package C is clearly too good.  Which means that it is broken to trade Package A for Package B.  So if you use the gestalt-2 system, you shouldn't allow extra gestalt levels to be taken if the cost per gestalt level is only 1 feat.I also think that the master class system, while better than the vanilla MT and EK builds, is not *too* much better.  The gestalt-4 system starts off allowing 11 gestalt levels.  So already it is a lot better than the gestalt-2 system which starts off with only 8.  It is as if you gave a gestalt-2 build 3 free feats which were then traded in to convert ordinary levels to gestalt levels.  Too good.So, I would say the only non-broken gestalt level variant is the following:Unfortunately, that won't give you a BAB 16 build with CL 17; the target for a gish build.  The best it can do is fighter 3/wizard 9/fighter-wizard 8, with a BAB of 15.  It won't even give you a cleric 13/wizard 17 build, which even a mystic theurge can do (best is an 11/17 split)  It's just a fact that gestalt builds tend to have better hp, skills and BAB, and so they can't afford to have as good a caster level.(Actually, if you use a house-ruled Warrior that has a +0.25 BAB every level as a special ability, then you can make a decent gish.  Or a feat that can be taken once to give a +1 BAB.  Or something.  But a wizard/cleric 17/13 would still be out, let alone a 17/17.)For simplicity, the gestalt-2 mechanic listed above works great.  I like it, but I don't know how it can be fixed up to fully solve the multige problem.</blockquote>

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