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<blockquote data-quote="James Gasik" data-source="post: 8728262" data-attributes="member: 6877472">4e saves were specifically used for spells with durations beyond one round.&nbsp; Imagine two powers- one says &quot;target is dazed (save ends)&quot; and the other is &quot;target is dazed until the end of your next turn&quot;.&nbsp; The second power was better in most cases because you knew how long it would last.&nbsp; The first could theoretically last longer, but it generally didn't, as everyone had a 50% chance to save by default, and things that boosted saves did exist, plus Elite and Solo enemies had saving throw bonuses baked into them.However, on those rare occasions an enemy did fail two saves against a (save ends) effect, it was disastrous and generally spelled the doom of that opponent.&nbsp; I saw this first hand with my Ranger, where I had an ability that (assuming I could land three hits), would leave an opponent dazed (save ends) and stunned (save ends).&nbsp; Fighting against a Solo enemy (with a +5 bonus on saving throws!), the DM failed the stun save twice- and basically called the fight there, as the combat advantage for us, and the fact that the enemy couldn't act or even use it's juicy immediate actions made it about as challenging as shooting fish in a barrel.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="James Gasik, post: 8728262, member: 6877472"] 4e saves were specifically used for spells with durations beyond one round. Imagine two powers- one says "target is dazed (save ends)" and the other is "target is dazed until the end of your next turn". The second power was better in most cases because you knew how long it would last. The first could theoretically last longer, but it generally didn't, as everyone had a 50% chance to save by default, and things that boosted saves did exist, plus Elite and Solo enemies had saving throw bonuses baked into them. However, on those rare occasions an enemy [B]did [/B]fail two saves against a (save ends) effect, it was disastrous and generally spelled the doom of that opponent. I saw this first hand with my Ranger, where I had an ability that (assuming I could land three hits), would leave an opponent dazed (save ends) [B]and[/B] stunned (save ends). Fighting against a Solo enemy (with a +5 bonus on saving throws!), the DM failed the stun save twice- and basically called the fight there, as the combat advantage for us, and the fact that the enemy couldn't act or even use it's juicy immediate actions made it about as challenging as shooting fish in a barrel. [/QUOTE]

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