Mundane utility to match magic

[Blue]

In RPGs that have magic, often that magic gives the characters that wield it more options for out-of-combat utility than other characters. This isn't saying that there aren't out-of-combat features, your woodsman might have several tricks they can do in the proper terrain. But in general those type of features are more focused on where they are applicable, while magic gives a wider range of places the character can take the spotlight.

In many games, all characters get skills, including those that can wield magic. So I wouldn't want to link this solely to having skills, since the idea is that these are things that those who don't have magic get to give them the utility to match magic and giving it to everyone doesn't address the imbalance. Note that doesn't mean skills can't be a prerequisite for some/all to help shape those options to match the vision and direction of a character.

So, what type of utility is more generally applicable. Doesn't need to be (actually, shouldn't) be always applicable, but can come up in over half the sessions in a campaign if the character wants to pay whatever resource cost there is (to match magic's resource attrition).

For example, "Contacts" might come up a lot if it can include traveling merchants, hermits, possible other adventurers. Just like a caster might be able to authorially add a temporary bridge across a chasm , a character with Contacts can authorially add a friendly encounter with a patrol of the Duke's men (assuming that's within their abilities) whom to turn over those bandit prisoners. (And not in a "every good deed gets twisted that they will automatically escape, killing the patrol -- even if that's good story, you wouldn't make the magic bridge start to fall across halfway through).

What are your thoughts on mundane utilities that have a high frequency of coming up, of similar reality-changing power as magic?

 

[GMMichael]

In many games, all characters get skills, including those that can wield magic. So I wouldn't want to link this solely to having skills, since the idea is that these are things that those who don't have magic get to give them the utility to match magic and giving it to everyone doesn't address the imbalance.
. . .
What are your thoughts on mundane utilities that have a high frequency of coming up, of similar reality-changing power as magic?

My impression is that those who don't have magic typically have another resource that makes them awesome, so they don't need a magic alternative. Fighters kill things with real tools. Thieves disappear and acquire things. Bards annoy people. Magic users . . . have utility, and they're typically bad at what the others do until they start using magic.

But sure, let's make those magic PCs jealous. The Call in a Favor route's not bad. Kinda slow, though. Magic happens NOW. Magical items is another way to go, and faster. Special companions? "My pet giraffe can span that gap. Let's run across his neck!" What about fate/luck? "Oh man, I wish we had a wizard to conjure a bridge for us!" "Hang on, I'll use some luck . . . Wait! Is that giant tree on the other side about to tip over and span the gap, just as we're needing it?"

I like an RPG to offer magic to all characters equally, without calling it "magic." You could have four characters with the "summon bridge" power, and each player flavors it differently: magic, luck, psionics, and nanotech.

 

[bloodtide]

What are your thoughts on mundane utilities that have a high frequency of coming up, of similar reality-changing power as magic?

I've tried....but it really does not work.

You can make a Base Action Bonus per class per level with an Action Armor Class to take away Action Points. And make a massive exactly like combat rule set with 500 pages of rules, equipment, weapons, skills, abilities, powers and everything else. So a character can attack a guard with a 'charter from the King' for 1d10 damage, with the feat 'pressing a point' for plus 1d4 damage and try and hit the guards AAC and take his 15 AP to zero.

But....when you get even like 5% into the above.....well, you can just do 4E: Everyone just gets "spells" or "not spells..wink wink but exactly like spells but not magic..wink wink."

But worst of all most players don't seem to care or want to use such a system added to a game. If they want it: they will play a game that has it.

 

[hawkeyefan]

@Blue

Given how broad the category of magic is compared to what people consider "possible" to physically accomplish, this is a tricky question. It's a take on the quadratic wizard to linear fighter problem, which has been an issue with many games for years.

Some games have managed to deal with this, though. I would look to such games for inspiration. Apocalypse World (though it's not quite magic in this case) and some of its better offshoots (Dungeon World and Stonetop come to mind). Some other games manage this as well.

I think the best way to tackle it is to address it on both sides. Tone down the magic a bit, or make the spellcaster a bit more limited in some way, or put a cost to magic that helps mitigate its efficacy. At the same time, broaden what the warrior type can effectively do. Allow them to injure multiple opponents with one attack, give them other abilities that make them dangerous in combat to help offset the more limited focus they have.

 

[jian]

It depends a bit on how narrative your game is. So if everything uses the same mechanics (e.g. Risus or FATE) to narrate very different things (Friends Everywhere, Atomic Fire Magic) then there’s mechanically no difference between the two things and the player is only limited by their imagination in when and how they can use their abilities, depending on how broad the interpretation is.

Another take is from Smallville (Cortex RPG based on the TV series of the same name) where the main conflicts and obstacles are about persuading other people. It doesn’t matter that Clark can lift a battleship or run faster than sound, none of that is going to help him persuade Lois not to reveal his secret online. So while Clark does have Super-strength d12 and Super-speed d10, his important stats are Love d8 and Lois Has My Back d10.

One thing about mundane utility vs magic is the age-old problem of magical solutions for mundane problems. I’m sure I’m not the only one who was annoyed that my thief had spent several levels getting Open Locks and Hide in Shadows up to more than 50% and then the 3rd level wizard casts Knock and Invisibility. That’s something to avoid, if niche protection is important in your game.

 

[Theory of Games]

What are your thoughts on mundane utilities that have a high frequency of coming up, of similar reality-changing power as magic?

Firstly, it has to do with your definition of "mundane utility". That could be almost anything.

Second, with GURPS there's numerous utilities PCs can use outside of magic:

• Allies
• Patrons
• Contacts
• Status/Rank
• Reputation
• Talents
• Tenure
• Clerical or Power Investitures
• Trained by a Master

Plus all the many other Advantages of GURPS that give PCs added utility. No other ttrpg comes close to the versatility of characterization that GURPS offers.

 

[FrogReaver]

like the wizard has fireball my fighter gets a grenade launcher?

 

[TiQuinn]

But sure, let's make those magic PCs jealous. The Call in a Favor route's not bad. Kinda slow, though. Magic happens NOW. Magical items is another way to go, and faster. Special companions? "My pet giraffe can span that gap. Let's run across his neck!" What about fate/luck? "Oh man, I wish we had a wizard to conjure a bridge for us!" "Hang on, I'll use some luck . . . Wait! Is that giant tree on the other side about to tip over and span the gap, just as we're needing it?"

I wonder if instead of “Call in a favor” there could be an ability like “Invoke Name”, I.E. “"I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass! The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udûn."

Gandalf is not really casting a spell here. He’s establishing his creds. He’s saying essentially “Do you know who I am? Let me tell you.” and drawing a reaction, making the Balrog pause.

The thing is this has to do things beyond just a standard Intimidate or Persuasion roll would do.

​

 

[GMMichael]

Some games have managed to deal with this, though. I would look to such games for inspiration. Apocalypse World (though it's not quite magic in this case) and some of its better offshoots (Dungeon World and Stonetop come to mind). Some other games manage this as well.

Modos RPG comes to mind, too. Even if your fighter-style character doesn't take a power (skill) and call it Rapid Impromptu Bridge Identification (or what the wizard would call Alter 4, lifting it straight from the book), you could design your hero points like this: "has an eye for architectural applications." Then you could burn a hero point when the missing bridge example comes up, and hope for a high contest result. (A low contest might mean you still find a "bridge," but it's a little more treacherous than you might have hoped.)

I think the best way to tackle it is to address it on both sides. Tone down the magic a bit, or make the spellcaster a bit more limited in some way, or put a cost to magic that helps mitigate its efficacy. At the same time, broaden what the warrior type can effectively do. Allow them to injure multiple opponents with one attack, give them other abilities that make them dangerous in combat to help offset the more limited focus they have.

Part of me says, "yes, let the two meet in the middle." But we can boil down the OP concern to:

Casters: can do magical things.
Non-casters: can do normal things.

A glaring problem with this (I hope) is that Casters can also do normal things. So really, the best balancing is to spread some of those magical things down to the Non-casters.

 

[Blue]

My impression is that those who don't have magic typically have another resource that makes them awesome, so they don't need a magic alternative. Fighters kill things with real tools. Thieves disappear and acquire things. Bards annoy people. Magic users . . . have utility, and they're typically bad at what the others do until they start using magic.

Just as a side note, this is in TTRPG general, specifically not a D&D forum.

We aren't necessarily talking about a system with classes, much less specific ones that have the strengths you mention.

But sure, let's make those magic PCs jealous. The Call in a Favor route's not bad. Kinda slow, though. Magic happens NOW. Magical items is another way to go, and faster. Special companions? "My pet giraffe can span that gap. Let's run across his neck!" What about fate/luck? "Oh man, I wish we had a wizard to conjure a bridge for us!" "Hang on, I'll use some luck . . . Wait! Is that giant tree on the other side about to tip over and span the gap, just as we're needing it?"

I like an RPG to offer magic to all characters equally, without calling it "magic." You could have four characters with the "summon bridge" power, and each player flavors it differently: magic, luck, psionics, and nanotech.

Trying to distill this to the useful bits.

Call in a Favor - somewhat related to Contacts but a bit more focused.
Luck - this might be the other way around - too wide so it's always applicable.

Note that magic, psionics, nor nanotech are mundane, so those are all categories of characters that we explicitly would be excluding from what we are doing, as explaining in the original post.