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Message: <blockquote data-quote="squibbles" data-source="post: 9530247" data-attributes="member: 6937590">Good lord did this thread grow quickly.Reminder--it isn't meant to be a thread for arguing about alignment (though I am guilty of that myself on checks notes page 5 <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f635.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt="o_O" title="Er... what?    o_O"  data-smilie="12"data-shortname="o_O" />). It's meant to take two apparently contradictory positions and come up with an interesting reason why they aren't contradictory.So, for example, [USER=205]@TwoSix[/USER] and [USER=6790260]@EzekielRaiden[/USER], your back and forth, I think, comes down to TwoSix having posited a solution to the contradiction, and EzekielRaiden objecting that it isn't a satisfying solution. Well... reasonable people may differ... let's come up with some more weird answers.After some thought and review of the discussion, I think I have a decent one.Let's conceive of Good and Evil as positions on a spectrum of tolerance for worldly suffering.[ATTACH=full]388914[/ATTACH]Ok, pretty straightforward.So what can the position of muscular indifference be here?It's NOT a view that suffering is necessary for there to be the contrast that allows people to experience Good. That might be a position on the axis but, if it is, I think it's pretty close to Good.No, muscular neutrals like there to be suffering in the world as an aesthetic preference... because it's beautiful.Let me give an example from a movie, Stranger than Fiction. In this movie, Will Ferrell "<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stranger_than_Fiction_(2006_film)" target="_blank">begins hearing a disembodied voice narrating his life as it happens – seemingly the text of a novel in which it is stated that he, the main character, will soon die – and he frantically seeks to somehow prevent his death.</a>" At one point, he asks for help from literary scholar Dustin Hoffman, who, having read the manuscript of the book, explains to him that the novel is sooooo good that, really, the right thing for him to do here is die. Sounds ridiculous, but watch Dustin Hoffman steel man it:[MEDIA=youtube]WNNie9eXKgI[/MEDIA]Ok, back to D&D. For starters, this is how druids feel about nature. Animals don't have full moral agency, neither do forest fires, but both of these things cause MASSIVE amounts of suffering (<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil#Problem_of_evil_and_animal_suffering" target="_blank">see the Problem of Evil vis a vis animal suffering</a>). Druids aren't bothered by this. They think nature is magnificent and beautiful, in part because of the cyclical predation, death, fire, renewal, etc. They would kick, bite, scream, and pull hair if the solars and planetars came down to end animal suffering.Good people think druids are messed up. That's why they live in cities, employ fire fighters, and have strong norms against killing and eating each other.There is a druid-like position on a variety of topics--one which is clearly not Good, but which you can kind-of see the aesthetic argument for and can appreciate that some people feel passionate about.Love:In the Good afterlives, existence is filled with loving kindness and empathy for fellow beings; loss and heartbreak are sad and preventable. Muscular neutrals think heartbreak is magnificent and beautiful and cherish a world where the extremes of emotion can widely be felt.[ATTACH=full]388911[/ATTACH]War:Good would prefer if there were no wars because they destroy life and subvert dignity. Muscular neutrals think that without war there would be no ennobling heroic sacrifice or tragedy of brother against brother, no Illiad, no Star Wars. (I suspect I may get pushback on this one.)[ATTACH=full]388912[/ATTACH]Well, not perfect, I think I subverted my argument with the captions a bit.Feel free to criticize!But also, try and come up with your own. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f60e.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":cool:" title="Cool    :cool:"  data-smilie="6"data-shortname=":cool:" /></blockquote>

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