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Message: <blockquote data-quote="malkav666" data-source="post: 4983997" data-attributes="member: 70565">I don't think the idea of a spell or ability that lets a player or group of players overcome a challenge in a direct way is a terrible thing. These "I win" tactics exist in many many games, and in every edition of D&D.The only time it really becomes a problem is when the tactic allows a player or group of players to defeat EVERY challenge, which is usually the result of one of two things IMO:1.) The party is being allowed to "5 minute workday" the encounters, and have all of their big guns for every encounter. This can make classes that have two or three big one shot weapons that they can use a day look like they are dropping bombs all the time, when the reality of the situation is: If they ran more than an encounter or two in a day those big bombs would run out, and then the folks with the not so big (but so small either) guns begin to shine.To put it into a non D&D perspective: Say we have a combat unit that consists of a rocketeer with three shots whose backup weapon is a pistol. A heavy machine gunner who has a a backup knife, a few pistols, and maybe a grenade or two, an operative with a pair of SMG's and stealth skills and a knife, and finally a medic with a pistol several grenades and all of the drugs.If the party is allowed to refill their ammo and supplies after every single encounter, then the rocketeer and the medic seem like the MVP all the time, with the machine gunner and opertive geting in a good shot every now and again. If you take that same group and put them on a mission deep into enemey teritory where the ammo (rest in this analogy) is few and far between, and the group has to do 3-5 encounters before restocking, then the folks with 2-3 big guns still have the option of looking like the big dog, but during the encounters when they are out of ammo, the operative, and the machine gunner are the big guns.So IMO a lot of the issue with "I win" is pacing your game so that they are available every combat. If you wizard comes out int he first round and lauches a bad guy to the moon, there is no reason for the party to stop and rest. If you as a DM let them rest, then what you will have is a series of lunar launches, and rest in a never ending spin cycle.2.)There are some poorly written (or at least not plainly written) abilities in several games. There are abilities from many sources in all of these D&D editions. Some of them or unbalanced, don't work well, and a few are outright broken. Thems the ropes. If you find these in your group, and they are coming up all of the time and taking away the enjoyment of other players then they need to be addressed. It could be anything from the use silence to counter any spell ever clerics in 3e, to the intimidate anything ALL the time paladins in 4e (and those should be read as my opinions of systems that don't fit into MY games). You just deal with em'So in short the TLDR version is; IMO an "I have a chance to win one to two encounter a day out of a series" is OK in my book (most of the time). "I have a chance to win against a certain type of enemy" is OK in my book. I have no problem with my players kicking ass.I automatically win every encounter is not OK. And TBH I have not personally seen very many mechanics of this nature in D&D (of any edition). But I am sure others have as there are lots of threads about it. Maybe I am just lucky and have a good group for D&D.love,malkav</blockquote>

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