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<blockquote data-quote="Victim" data-source="post: 4232706" data-attributes="member: 78">Temper smiles as what's-her-name (I don't think Jubilee's name has been mentioned in her presence) gets in her face and folds her arms behind her back.&nbsp; &quot;To start, I don't recall expressing any dislike of modernity for its own sake.&nbsp; Ideas both new and old can be immoral or not, useful or not.&nbsp; I have a problem with modern teenagers because it seems to undervalue the potential of young people, and also serves to concentrate power.&nbsp; Also, the modern developments you mention aren't.&nbsp; Equal rights for women and other races are simply Enlightment principles applied universally, instead of selectively. Medicine and technologies are also the result of work over centuries.&nbsp; Finally, none of those advances were attained by people willing to accept social convention for its own sake.&quot;&quot;It's rather ironic that you attacked reason and told me to accept a social role without challenge on one hand, and yet praise the fruits of taking the opposite approach with the other.&quot;&quot;Are you here to learn, or here to be educated?&quot;&nbsp; &quot;How can someone think quickly and effectively in a life and death crisis or firefight if he or she can't even do so in an argument?&quot;&nbsp; Temper returns, rather unphased by the firey burst.&quot;I disagree with your theory of war and conflict.&nbsp; Wars are mostly about power and control - specifically, one or more groups attempting to increase both at the expense of another's.&nbsp; Many people aren't willing to admit that kind of selfishness to themselves though.&nbsp; They need to rationalize.&nbsp; Other people aren't so willing to fight and die for a ruler's greed.&nbsp; So the rulers make up some other reasons.&nbsp; Dehumanize the other side.&nbsp; Promote 'unity.'&nbsp; Sure, if their propaganda efforts are very successful, the attitudes used to sell the conflict will remain or even perpetuate themselves, thus leading to future conflicts.&nbsp; But that doesn't change the root cause.&quot;&nbsp; She offers an extension of the argument to Phase, &quot;Care to provide evidence for your model?&nbsp; Would you say that your basic assumption is that conflict and disagreement are undesireable?&quot;&nbsp; Conflict is the essence of life!I don't think you know what I was about to do - I've been armed much of my life and haven't shot anyone for disagreeing in conversation with me so far.&nbsp; I want people to be able to defend themselves so they CAN'T be made to agree with force or manipulation.&nbsp; It would defeat the whole point to do things Their way.&nbsp; </blockquote>

[QUOTE="Victim, post: 4232706, member: 78"] Temper smiles as what's-her-name (I don't think Jubilee's name has been mentioned in her presence) gets in her face and folds her arms behind her back. "[COLOR=Olive]To start, I don't recall expressing any dislike of modernity for its own sake. Ideas both new and old can be immoral or not, useful or not. I have a problem with modern teenagers because it seems to undervalue the potential of young people, and also serves to concentrate power. Also, the modern developments you mention aren't. Equal rights for women and other races are simply Enlightment principles applied universally, instead of selectively. Medicine and technologies are also the result of work over centuries. Finally, none of those advances were attained by people willing to accept social convention for its own sake[/COLOR]." [COLOR=Olive]"It's rather ironic that you attacked reason and told me to accept a social role without challenge on one hand, and yet praise the fruits of taking the opposite approach with the other[/COLOR]." "[COLOR=Olive]Are you here to learn, or here to be educated[/COLOR]?" "[COLOR=Olive]How can someone think quickly and effectively in a life and death crisis or firefight if he or she can't even do so in an argument?" [/COLOR] Temper returns, rather unphased by the firey burst. [COLOR=Olive]"I disagree with your theory of war and conflict. Wars are mostly about power and control - specifically, one or more groups attempting to increase both at the expense of another's. Many people aren't willing to admit that kind of selfishness to themselves though. They need to rationalize. Other people aren't so willing to fight and die for a ruler's greed. So the rulers make up some other reasons. Dehumanize the other side. Promote 'unity.' Sure, if their propaganda efforts are very successful, the attitudes used to sell the conflict will remain or even perpetuate themselves, thus leading to future conflicts. But that doesn't change the root cause[/COLOR]." She offers an extension of the argument to Phase, "[COLOR=Olive]Care to provide evidence for your model? Would you say that your basic assumption is that conflict and disagreement are undesireable?[/COLOR]" [i]Conflict is the essence of life![/i] [i]I don't think you know what I was about to do - I've been armed much of my life and haven't shot anyone for disagreeing in conversation with me so far. I want people to be able to defend themselves so they CAN'T be made to agree with force or manipulation. It would defeat the whole point to do things Their way. [/i] [/QUOTE]

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