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Message: <blockquote data-quote="nonsi256" data-source="post: 5064672" data-attributes="member: 86164">Not that I’m taking anything personally, but . . .“You're a little too quick on your claims of handwaving and arbitrariness while offering (initially) nothing better”“you seem not to even understand the work you're now criticizing.”“Before you start claiming flaws in things you don't understand--and you don't understand the SBG”“That you're not seeing 'patterns' simply means you've either not looked at the rules or you've only skimmed through them”“You're not seeing it”“You fired off snap judgments before”“didn't understand the DMG rules then, you're missing the SBG rules now.”“Then you and those hundreds of others need to go back and actually read the rules.”“ Just because you don't understand or agree with them”Notice a recurring “finger pointing” pattern?And now for the issues, one by one.>> Actually, there is a table in there for the locomotion>> of a stronghold that is capable of movement.The table is in front of me at this very moment.>> I'm fairly certain that table has different costs>> associated with it based on varying speeds.Great. Now explain it to me like I was 6 years old. How do you extract so many different movements out of a spell that doesn’t have anything remotely associated with voluntary aerial movement?And given the spell level is already set, where do the movement & pricing diffs come from, other than caster level (which was never formulated into items’ pricing to begin with – and if it ever were, then somebody did a terrible editing job, given I never found it)?>> I think I saw the final version a little while backThen you didn’t. The final version is in my house rules codex; entry (= post) #3.>> You're a little too quick on your claims of>> handwaving and arbitrariness while offering>> (initially) nothing betterNicely put. Initially. That’s why I presented the topic for public discussion – to figure missing bits of info, inconsistencies and inaccuracies (not so everybody will cheer and tell me what a genius I am. Getting a pat on the head in the virtual space is not among my psychological needs). And ValhallaGH's tips worked wonders.>> you seem not to even understand the work>> you're now criticizing. I believe I got the numbers quite nicely figured out.What I couldn’t locate are the computation methodologies. Not of scrolls, potions, wands and other disposable applications of spells that are given specifically and easy to find, but of permanent items that work different than the spells they’re supposed to be based upon (or not based upon spells at all – e.g. plusses & stat enhancements of various sorts, which don’t correspond to spell levels at all).>> Before you start claiming flaws in things>> you don't understandI wasn’t talking about flaws in the broad meaning. All I said was that the rules as given are not satisfactory in my view.>> why not try to figure out what it does first and learn its strengths;Did it occur to you that after so many years of using the rules on both sides of the fence, one would probably get a picture of how the clock ticks?>> and in doing so, you'll figure out possible >> shortcomings that can be corrected.Unless one decides s/he doesn’t want to sow patches over foundations s/he finds unsatisfying.>> There are patterns in the book. If you read>> the rules (until you understand them), you'll>> see the patterns in the tables and the pricing.Ok, let’s stop going around the bush.What patterns do you recognize?Let’s say I have a 2nd level effect that’s always active when the item is equipped/donned.How much will it cost me?How much will it cost if the caster level were 7th instead of 3rd?How much will it cost me to be able to turn it on/off whenever I want?And if it’s a trap that reacts to anyone touching it in a wrong manner? How much does the “reactiveness” feature cost me?And what if the power is permanent, but limited in #uses per time quota – how much cheaper will it make the item?Notice that I deliberately not mention a specific effect, just the raw data of how the item functions.>> That you're not seeing 'patterns' simply means>> you've either not looked at the rules or you've>> only skimmed through them.Or maybe I’m looking for rules that were not formulated before 3.5e’s time-to-the-market deadline.Did you notice that aside from the errata, all added materials were patches upon the 3 core books and that they never touched any of the rules after they were released – as if they were the divine word of god? (just some stuff to contemplate).>> The thing is, that's exactly what the book does.>> The costs are based on the spells used (and>> thus their levels), there is some issue of frequency>> but SBG typically covers ongoing enchantments. The book just presents numbers without explaining how they’re deduced.The book doesn’t cover submerged movement, vehicles that burrow and many more issues.The book doesn’t mention a control module or means of dispelling/destruction.And so on and so forth.>> Also, I personally don't get your "action-taxing>> activation" thing.Does it take a standard action to activate?A move action?A swift/immediate action?A free action?A non-action (a part of another action)?Does it go off on its own given the appropriate condition(s)?>> Whether an effect is triggered by an act of will,No can do – unless the item is intelligent and possesses the capability of telepathy.(another topic I don’t remember to have encountered)>> a spoken word or waving an arm or object>> around, is largely irrelevant and a matter>> of flavor for the most part.It matters if you’re gagged/bound/deaf/blind/feebleminded/submerged...If it all cost the same, I’d always make all options available – and that’s how much variety you’d have in activation modes. Zero.>> It shouldn't be any more or less challenging>> to make an effect activate in whatever manner>> its creator desires.Ditto.>> Its one thing to not understand something but>> its another thing entirely to disagreeLet me get it straight. Am I forbidden to disagree :-0>> Because epic characters tend to invest their>> wealth in arms, armor and other items, not in>> real estate. Characters that don't spend their>> money on gear for the next tougher monster>> to come along get eaten by that monster>> without some seriously good rolls or divine>> (DM) intervention. One of the main incentives behind my house rules was to kill the sham called “WBL”.At lower levels, the right magical item might be invaluable. However, at the higher levels, there shouldn’t exist a specific item that makes the difference between survival and TPK on a regular basis.And it’s not supposed to be all based so profoundly upon stats (which is the case with 3e).The DM having to intervene on a regular basis to keep the WBL is plain simple BS.And... a shrewd enough character(player) might be a great merchant and gain a kazillion and one gps more than anyone else in the campaign.Equipment can be lost, stolen, damaged, confiscated and so on. Having to go through hulahoops to maintain WBL is counter-intuitive to the storyline, non-credible and counterproductive to the campaign and the group.>> If you want to create a game where the players >> have to "build" a flying island, go for it.“Have to” never crossed my mind.>> there's nothing exciting about it, there's no challenge.For some, probably not. For others... there might be some hidden potential in it.>> and what's the pay-off?A base of operations no one on earth can put under siege, for instance?>> Oh, I got a flying island, but I don't have>> the gear or resources to defend it! Now what?See above.>> One thing you're missing here that you missed>> with your item creation discussion is that for>> the most part players don't care about creating>> magic items beyond "can I do it?". , "how much>> does it cost?" and "when do I get it?"YMMV.Different things make different people tick.>>The rules are for the DM to use to help him decide>> if it can be done, if it should be done and how>> much it will cost. That's why its in the DMG?>> and not the PHB. 1. Apparently, some don’t find them satisfyingly informative.2. Did you never look inside the DMG as a player?>> Just because you don't understand or agree with>> them doesn't make them less valid or even useless.Just for future occurrences, you got your emphasis reversed.</blockquote>

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