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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Technik4" data-source="post: 870534" data-attributes="member: 7211">Ok we agree on the power of a 20th wizard should only be in the hands of a 20th level wizard. Now, where do you think the power of a 20th level wiz/rog should be?Personally, without prc, I would use the following build:Rog3/Wiz17This gives me access to 9th level spells, a little bit of rogue-ish skills, evasion, uncanny dodge, and +2d6 sneak attack. If you take it at 1st level, its optimum, skill points galore.Now, with a prc that offers half-casting, it becomes:Rog4/Wiz10/Prc6You need at least 4 rogue levels to fulfill the skill requirements of the arcane trickster. Half-casting puts us at 13th level caster, or  7th level spells, at 20th level.The question is, what did I get out of those 6 prc levels to make it worth my while to give up 8th and 9th level spells. If the answer is 12 more skill points and +2d6 sneak attack, then I have to say the prc wizard got ripped off.IMO, the only way to even reasonably begin a prc to fill in the shoes of a multiclasser is to at least give abilities at the same rate they multiclass. That would be:1 +1 Spellcasting2 +1d6 Sneak Attack3 +1 Spellcasting4 +1d6 Sneak Attack5 +1 Spellcasting6 +1d6 Sneak Attack7 +1 Spellcasting8 +1d6 Sneak Attack9 +1 Spellcasting10 +1d6 Sneak AttackThen we add in ranged legedermain, basically this is one of the things the multiclass rog/wiz is giving up uncanndy dodge progression, high level rogue abilities, high level spells, and familiar progression for, so it had better be good.1 +1 Spellcasting, Ranged Legerdemain 1/day2 +1d6 Sneak Attack3 +1 Spellcasting4 +1d6 Sneak Attack5 +1 Spellcasting, Ranged Legerdemain 2/day6 +1d6 Sneak Attack7 +1 Spellcasting8 +1d6 Sneak Attack9 +1 Spellcasting, Ranged Legerdemain 3/day10 +1d6 Sneak AttackWe are going to adopt the bardic proficiency to cast spells in light armor (medium armor really is just redundant, as no self-respecting rogue would be caught dead in chainmail or breastplate), which ideally we would want to give as a reward at 1st level. Fortunately, we can bump ranged legerdemain progression 1 level and everything still works.1 +1 Spellcasting, Arcane Armor Proficiency2 +1d6 Sneak Attack, Ranged Legerdemain 1/day3 +1 Spellcasting4 +1d6 Sneak Attack5 +1 Spellcasting6 +1d6 Sneak Attack, Ranged Legerdemain 2/day7 +1 Spellcasting8 +1d6 Sneak Attack9 +1 Spellcasting10 +1d6 Sneak Attack, Ranged Legerdemain 3/dayNow we have 2 good reasons to take this prc over straight multiclassing. Lets analyze the "other stuff" we get. Higher Hit Die (d6 over d6/d4 hybrid), fewer skills (multiclass averages 10 per 2 levels, prc averages 8), but a consolidated skill list makes it nice so that all those skills can be maxed. The saving throws also come out slightly better, as the prc has 2 strong saves. So those are some nice bonuses going on behind the scene.But so far we've not provided a really big "draw" to the class. My earlier analysis pointed out that a wizard/rogue with wizard inclinations is only going to take 6 level, so they can get that bonus feat as a wizard, and generally more spells. A rogue-inclined rog/wiz may go as high as 7 in the prc (denying himself the 4th wizard level) but will want to stay a rogue at least 10 level to score a nice high-level rogue ability.Clearly, this prc needs just such a high-level incentive for both wizards and rogues to stick around and not go back to their respective classes. He already has some neat things he can do a couple times per day, how about improving those still and silent feats you don't like? Maybe something along the lines of "the arcane trickster may alter a spell with still or silent spell without raising its level a number of times equal to his/her class level + spellcasting mod. If this application is spontaneous, it does not increase the casting time of the spell". Before you think how thats too powerful, lets look at the situation. A wizard or a sorc cannot do this to that many spells, certainly not all of them, and it wouldnt be beneficial to at any rate. Still and silent are most useful for getting around the following: arcane spell failure, casting while grappled/tied up, or possibly to conceal that you are casting a spell entirely. And this isn't just an ability granted early, this is the carrot to make pcs want to go all the way at the cost of higher level spells or higher level rogue abilities.1 +1 Spellcasting, Arcane Armor Proficiency2 +1d6 Sneak Attack, Ranged Legerdemain 1/day3 +1 Spellcasting4 +1d6 Sneak Attack5 +1 Spellcasting6 +1d6 Sneak Attack, Ranged Legerdemain 2/day7 +1 Spellcasting8 +1d6 Sneak Attack9 +1 Spellcasting, Stealth Casting10 +1d6 Sneak Attack, Ranged Legerdemain 3/dayWe'll place it at 9th level, still just out of range for both of the earlier builds to maximize their potential. A rogue could go minimum on wizard levels, but then stealth casting wouldn't be an issue as the spells would be extremely low level. Similarly, the wizard who goes minimum on rogue levels is giving up a lot of spellcasting for it and will top out at 11th level caster (barely obtaining 6th level spells).Thats my take. I don't like youre extended casting mechanic because it unfairly favors sorcerors, and is a slightly strange mechanic. Being able to use other people's magic is powerful as written, getting to keep a slot is too much, imo.This prc doesn't get the best things of both classes, but it provides a very solid multiclassed prestige class that characters may find themselves taking quite a few levels of, or only a couple.Technik</blockquote>

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