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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Lanefan" data-source="post: 7484040" data-attributes="member: 29398">I've never looked at the Prince Valiant RPG, but I have to admit you're getting me curious. And this is where you're not quite getting something that seems clear to me; only I'm not sure why you're not getting it.If nothing was created either before or during that session there would very likely have been no play at all.  But some things were created, a widowed noblewoman being the go-to example for the moment, and play then interacted with this creation among others.Obviously, or at least I hope it's obvious, I was referring to permanent within the framework of the game.Again you're looking outside the game.  Within the game, that game's accumulated fiction would (almost certainly) have had an impact on the ongoing play.The key word here being 'might', as it implies 'might not' just as well. That particular encounter is certain to have one ongoing impact to the game: the PCs gained a few xp for it.  Uncertain is whether it'll have any other lasting impact; my point is that a lasting impact of some sort cannot be ruled out entirely.For example, it might be that particular encounter that Jocelle and Falstaff look back on several adventures later as being the point where they stopped being two individual fighters and instead became a good combat team.  You just don't know.The fiction still has to be taken at face value, though, until and unless something happens within the game to change it as per all of your examples here.And it's a bit difficult to analyze how and when fiction is created - and whether this creation is an extra step in game play, as per the main discussion - without pulling examples of what results from the process, and what happens to it next.I think we agree here.But we don't agree here, in that even in a fully no-myth game the background (including PC backgrounds) and setting and scenario around the PCs has to come from somewhere.  It doesn't matter in this case whether it comes from the GM or the players or some combination of these, it still has to come from somewhere and still has to be in place before anyone can interact with it.That said, a player through an action declaration can put something in place and interact with it at what seems like the same time.  Let's unpack a typical action declaration and see what we find.Player: "I search the wall for a secret door.""I search <interaction as part of play> the wall <creation, either now or earlier> for a secret door <attempted creation, to be resolved by play mechanics; or interaction as part of play with something already created>"If the wall has been described or narrated earlier, that's creation at that time probably on the GM's part.  Obviously if the player is creating this wall right now as part of this declaration (which even in no-myth seems a bit unlikely) then it's creation on the player's part.And in any case that wall has become a permanent part of the fiction until and unless something happens to change it e.g. a Rock-To-Mud spell; and if a secret door is found then it too becomes a permanent part of the fiction.  This end result at the table is no different to the end result of a GM having mapped it all out months ago - the creation process still has to happen at some point.</blockquote>

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