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My Attempt to Define RPG's - RPG's aren't actually Games
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 7485909" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>The self-quote is from the first page of this thread. I was the first poster in this thread to identify <em>creation of a shared fiction</em> as a key element in RPGing.</p><p></p><p>That's not in dispute.</p><p></p><p>What's in dispute is what I have bolded in the two quotes from [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION]: that <em>creation</em> is preparation for play rather than, itself, a key component of RPG play.</p><p></p><p>No argument in favour of that proposition has been put forward in this thread. It's not true to my own experience. And it seems to rest on an unsound generalisation from two ways of playing D&D: (i) the GM draws a dungeon map and writes notes, and the heart of play is the players declaring moves that enable them to learn what the GM created and thereby make it true, in the fiction, that their PCs are looting the dungeon; (ii) the GM writes up a series of events - a scenario, like DL or any of dozens of post-DL modules/APs - and then the players "play through" the adventure.</p><p></p><p>But as far as my own episodes of play, which I've posted an linked to are concerned: when I tell the players, ie my friends, who are sitting with me about a dining room table, "You're at a market in Hardby. A peddler of trinkets has an angel feather for sale. He says its from the Bright Desert," I'm not <em>getting ready to play</em>. I'm <em>playing the game</em>. I've just made a "move" in the game, namely, establishing some piece of shared fiction that is also an invitation to them to make "moves", by declaring actions for their PCs and thereby establishing some more shared fiction.</p><p></p><p>You seem to accept that drawing, in Pictionary, is simply playing the game. Why do you deny that the GM making stuff up in the course of playing a RPG is simply playing the game?</p><p></p><p>Why do you insist that playing is not playing? What do you think is at stake in framing that moment of my play as, in fact, preparatory to play?</p><p></p><p>(I can think of some possible answers - eg you don't regard anything which is not action declaration for a PC or NPC as a "move" in the game - but I'm curious as to what your actual answer is.)</p><p></p><p>This isn't true. You yourself quoted the rules from Moldvay Basic, which tell the GM and players what is involved in playing a game: the GM will draw a dungeon map, and write up a catalogue-like description of its contents, in advance of play; and play will then consist of the players saying what things their PCs do to try and explore that dungeon and take the treasure out of it.</p><p></p><p>The rules for Burning Wheel, Prince Valiant and Marvel Heroic RP contain rules that occupy the same functional space, although the details of the instructions are different.</p><p></p><p>It's true the rules for Burning Wheel don't say "Tell the players they're in a market with a peddler." It's equally true that the rules for Pictionary don't tell you, when drawing a picture in response to the card that says "knife", you should draw a serrated or a non-serrated knife. Playing Pictionary has an inelinimable element of making stuff up. Playing a RPG has a bigger, more expansive element of making stuff up. <em>That's what playing the game consists in</em>.</p><p></p><p>(Also, the last sentence in this quote is consistent with a conjecture that you only regard action resolution as actually playing a RPG. If that's the case, it would probably help the thread if you state it clearly, plus your reasons for thinking this.)</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 7485909, member: 42582"] The self-quote is from the first page of this thread. I was the first poster in this thread to identify [I]creation of a shared fiction[/I] as a key element in RPGing. That's not in dispute. What's in dispute is what I have bolded in the two quotes from [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION]: that [I]creation[/I] is preparation for play rather than, itself, a key component of RPG play. No argument in favour of that proposition has been put forward in this thread. It's not true to my own experience. And it seems to rest on an unsound generalisation from two ways of playing D&D: (i) the GM draws a dungeon map and writes notes, and the heart of play is the players declaring moves that enable them to learn what the GM created and thereby make it true, in the fiction, that their PCs are looting the dungeon; (ii) the GM writes up a series of events - a scenario, like DL or any of dozens of post-DL modules/APs - and then the players "play through" the adventure. But as far as my own episodes of play, which I've posted an linked to are concerned: when I tell the players, ie my friends, who are sitting with me about a dining room table, "You're at a market in Hardby. A peddler of trinkets has an angel feather for sale. He says its from the Bright Desert," I'm not [I]getting ready to play[/I]. I'm [I]playing the game[/I]. I've just made a "move" in the game, namely, establishing some piece of shared fiction that is also an invitation to them to make "moves", by declaring actions for their PCs and thereby establishing some more shared fiction. You seem to accept that drawing, in Pictionary, is simply playing the game. Why do you deny that the GM making stuff up in the course of playing a RPG is simply playing the game? Why do you insist that playing is not playing? What do you think is at stake in framing that moment of my play as, in fact, preparatory to play? (I can think of some possible answers - eg you don't regard anything which is not action declaration for a PC or NPC as a "move" in the game - but I'm curious as to what your actual answer is.) This isn't true. You yourself quoted the rules from Moldvay Basic, which tell the GM and players what is involved in playing a game: the GM will draw a dungeon map, and write up a catalogue-like description of its contents, in advance of play; and play will then consist of the players saying what things their PCs do to try and explore that dungeon and take the treasure out of it. The rules for Burning Wheel, Prince Valiant and Marvel Heroic RP contain rules that occupy the same functional space, although the details of the instructions are different. It's true the rules for Burning Wheel don't say "Tell the players they're in a market with a peddler." It's equally true that the rules for Pictionary don't tell you, when drawing a picture in response to the card that says "knife", you should draw a serrated or a non-serrated knife. Playing Pictionary has an inelinimable element of making stuff up. Playing a RPG has a bigger, more expansive element of making stuff up. [I]That's what playing the game consists in[/I]. (Also, the last sentence in this quote is consistent with a conjecture that you only regard action resolution as actually playing a RPG. If that's the case, it would probably help the thread if you state it clearly, plus your reasons for thinking this.) [/QUOTE]
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