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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Steverooo" data-source="post: 3016889" data-attributes="member: 9410">Perhaps you're using them the wrong ways?If the information is absolutely needed, give it to the PCs without a roll (in the boxed text, for example).  If it is useless, don't make a roll for it.  Just tell them "You learn that Mary Smith is having a child out of wedlock, but nothing useful."GMs need to create tables where the clues they want the PCs to have are already given out, when most useful hints are DC:15+, and where low rules gives the useless stuff, and higher ones more important clues.  For instance:DC.......Clue 1........The King is pregnant! 2........Mary Smith is having a bastard! 3........Horace Watts was often seen along the road to Mary's place, late at night! 4........No additional info. 5........Horace Watts is a castrate.6-9......Burly Bob was also often seen about Mary's place, at night.10........Burly Bob is the Night Watchman, and gay.11-14...No additional info.15........All hints helpful to the adventure, plus all of the below.16........Burly Bob has reported klonking more goblins than usual over the head, of late.17....... Bob is annoyed!18....... Bob thought he saw some goblins leading off a cow, last Thursday.19....... Burly Bob isn't all that good at combat, despite his STR.20....... The goblins are rustling cattle (and pigs, chickens, goats, etc.).21-24... All of the below.25....... Goblin High Holy-day is fast approaching.Nothing deal-breaking, there, but a lot of info useless to this adventure, which you could delete, if you want.  Rumours which all point to the current (or next) adventure are great, here...  Maybe Mary Smith was raped by a goblin (or in league with them)!You don't control what the players (or their PCs) think, they do.PC: "I sense Motive!  Is he lieing?"GM: "No, he doesn't seem to be... or he's VERY good at it!"PC: "Wow! I rolled a 20!"GM: "Yeah, so what do you want to do?"As already pointed out, they CAN still attack, but with -2 penalties to-hit, to all saves & skill checks... so the Intinidation has SOME effect.No, Diplomacy DOESN'T work on PCs!  THEY tell YOU what their PCs do, and how they feel!  You can try to encourage them to feel the way you want, but if they don't want to kiss the Succubus, they aren't going to!  That's as it should be!Some things are just impossible to talk people into, though.  Suicide, for instance.  SOME people, yes, but Joe Average?  NO!  Set the DC = Infinity.  Let the PCs roll, if they want, but...Also, if the NPC is a Half-Orc, and hates Elves, then the Elf will always fail, regardless of rolls, even if the HO's attitude is adjusted to Friendly.  He may like THIS Elf, but still refuse to help Elves because of his prejudice (Even Archie Bunker liked Sammie Davis, Jr.)!Ah thank yew iz!My PC has Zero Ranks in MOST of these skills (and none of them are Class skills for his major class).  He is always trying to "Take 20" on Gather Info., anyway, and has five Ranks in Bluff (for all the Synergy Bonuses, not for lying), and another five in Sense Motive (he'd have more, and some Diplomacy, if he had more skill points, and less need for them).Before you chuck the skills, try putting more work into them!  Design your Info-Gathering tables.  Give away the "necessary" info, and award more for roles of 15+.Don't tell PCs "He's lieing." Tell them "He seems (un)trust-worthy."Enforce the Shaken penalties, and let the PCs do what they want.  If they attack the Ogre Chieftain, have at'em! <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/devious.png"  class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":]" title="Devious    :]" data-shortname=":]" /> Have NPCs bluff them, and let them Sense Motive all they want.  Just give them the "Either he's trust-worthy, or he's a good enough liar that your PC can't tell the difference!"  Then let them decide which!Rotsa Ruck!</blockquote>

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