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Message: <blockquote data-quote="fba827" data-source="post: 5600795" data-attributes="member: 807">i have not read all of this thread, so i apologize if i'm bringing up something that's already been said.but with reference to doing as much damage with a rock as a dagger, well the key difference between the two is not so much the damage but the the weapon proficiency bonus... as in, improvised weapons have none and therefore there is a greater chance of actually doing 0 damage with the rock than there is with the dagger.  It only happened that given your PC's attributes, he happened to be able to hit and therefore probably chucked the fist-sized rock at the target's head/crotch/spine/anywhereand thrown rocks hurt. a lot.try it as an experiment with two tomatoes - cut one with a knife and the other smash with a rock... assuming you didn't find some pebble size rock and instead used something fist sized, chances are you'll end up with the same amount of tomato guts spread across your kitchen counter.... the difference? the rock has to hit more central to actually do more damage while the knife can cut most anywhere -- sure, it's not a perfect experiment, but it's kind of sort of close...so the complainer may be focusing on the amount of damage that the dice said you did. But looking at actual probabilities, he would see that the chance of you doing any damage at all is lower, thus (in some ways) accounting for the rock not being as effective as a weapon.all that being said, make sure you are pursuing this with your group for the right reason... pick your fights and all that.are you pursuing this with them because the freedom to do stuff by the rules vs. dm adjudication is important to your enjoyment of the game?or are you pursuing this for the sake of showing the group that you are right?if it's the later, well, you may be picking this fight for the wrong reason and it will only serve to make people unhappy to game with you.conversely, if you're having this discussion with them for the sake of the former reason, well, know that at some point you'll have to accept the ruling and either move on or leave the group (if you keep pushing it beyond a tolerable amount then you'll turn in to "that guy" that the group talks about years from now that bothered them and wouldn't let the topic go)</blockquote>

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