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Message: <blockquote data-quote="F700" data-source="post: 5941073" data-attributes="member: 89378">Here's why you should re-read your AD&D DMG, and this wasn't meant to be an insult, demeaning, or superior. It's because all you arguements were countered before you ever made them. You want to head off to the dungeon with a wagon and mule. Fine, but like I pointed out, the terrain surrounding a dungeon isn't always going to be wagon friendly. In fact, it will likely be hostile territory. No roads. Thick, over grown brush. Mountainous. Waist deep snow. Inside a volcano. In a swamp...etc, etc. It's perfectly reasonable that a DM would say you can't drive a wagon to every adventure location, and he's not screwing the players, he's making a very reasonable and logical ruling. That dungeons are most often in inaccessible and exotic locations is pretty basic - it's why it's an adventure to go to them. Take the wagon apart you say. Excellent solution. Except now your tool to transport sellable goods that would be beyond your encumbrance limits has become encumbrance itself. Why would you even bring a wagon if you had the capability to carry such a huge load? That capability would have been better spent carry the treasure itself. Bring mules into the dungeon you say. How much trouble is that? This train of mules can walk up stairs? Climb ladders? Jump off ledges? Cross rope bridges? Jump over exposed pit traps? They don't mind suddenly having deadly monsters around them? Fireballs exploding near them? Bolts of lightning? No morale checks? No animal handling checks? They have stealth capabilities when the party needs to sneak? They're capable of hiding when the encounter the party would like to avoid pops up? They conveniently disappear when cpmbat starts so they're garunteed to survive? Centaur player characters were required to make saves every day spent in a dungeon because they were psychologically adverse to being underground. But pack animals with their animal intelligence are more willing? Leave the mules with your henchmen, camped 5 miles away. Because random encounters only happen when the pcs are present? Because the hired goons would never consider taking off with their pay and selling the horses, mules and wagons? No, of course not, because contrary to the first 5 minutes of Raiders of the Lost Ark, hirelings NEVER betray their employers. Especially when they're expected to spend a week or so in the wilderness surrounded by monsters they're too weak to fight.  Which of those is an unreasonable question for a DM to ask and respond to with a reasonable consequence? How is a DM screwing a player, or being overbearing, when they follow up the players solution to a problem with a logical consequence? Also reasonable is the DM curtailing that gp for xp accumulation by limiting the player's efforts by telling them that none of the local merchants want to buy their second hand dungeon dressing. Or even that the accumulation of gold acquired from such scroungings are signicant enough to count as xp. Or that they'd manage to hold onto it. There's actually a couple of lines in the excerpt on treasure and economics last week that relate to a party's finances. Should every solution the players devise be neutered by the DM? No. But a weak solution should be. And a solution that creates more problems than it solves most definately should be. Hence the expression "Out of the fire, into the frying pan." And if you think that's unreasonable, from the AD&D DMG, pg 86: "Experience points are merely an indicator of the character's progress towards greater proficency in his or her chosen profession. UPWARD PROGRESS IS NEVER AUTOMATIC. Just because Neil Nimblefingers, Rogue of the Theives Guild has managed to acquire 1,251 exprerience points does NOT mean that she suddenly becomes Neil Nimblefingers the Footpad. The gaining of sufficient experience points is necessary to indicate that a character is eligible to gain a level of experience, but the actual award is a matter for you, the DM, to decide." So if you're concerned about a DM actively trying to screw over players, try a DM who refuses level gaining to a PC because they don't feel the character did enough to warrant advancement despite their xp total. XP for GP, XP for quests, XP for RP, XP for defeating monsters, ultimately it's all the DM's perogative.  XP for GP is just an additional tool for the DM to use, and can be used to create a campaign where adventurers are first and foremost treasure hunters. Or just give the players an xp boost for a well played encounter. Yes, XP for GP can be abused by players, which doesn't make it any different that many other rules. In the end though it's up to the DM to step up, step in, and stop dead those sorts of abuses.</blockquote>

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