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Message: <blockquote data-quote="F700" data-source="post: 5941120" data-attributes="member: 89378">As already mentioned a couple of times, there are very clear rules describing the value of treasure in relation to the challenge of getting it.    Sorry - when you said you brought a wagon, I assumed you meant, y'know...a wagon...not a little Red Flyer. Oh, but wait...you left your wagon and hirelings 5 miles away at camp. Which means you never addressed the original point that finding a 2000 pound golden throne didn't automatically get 2000 xp for it. Because you had to get it out of the dungeon. Which is why you brought a wagon and hirelings...who are 5 miles away...so, uhm, how are you getting this 2000 pound throne out of the dungeon and over the 5 miles to your camp? I'll assume you leave it there and then go get your hirelings, and don't make littlers to transport it because like you told me "that's amatuer". And of course after you left the dungeon to get your hirelings and wagons (which are obviously off-road 4 wheel drive wagons), and returned to the dungeon, you are able to teleport the 2000 pound throne out of the dungeon and into your wagon with no problem. No, wait, your wagon is a magic shrinking wagon that can easily navigate the 10 foot wide corridors of the dungeon. And it's pulled by your hirelings, who can pull it up stairs, and ladders, and over pits. And it never gets a broken wheel, because that would be the DM cheating. Oh, yeah, and the treasure is all right where you left it because living dungeon design be damned.   Yes, ignore the loyalty rules because your hirelings would NEVER consider betraying you. EVER. Regardless of whatever situation you put them in. Like leaving them to fend for themselves in a dangerous environment.  Many random encounters might not be combat encounters. You could potentially roll a random encounter with a dwarf with bad gas. Many published modules had their own custom random encounter tables, and many, many of them were in fact combat encounters. And in AD&D players played their hirelings, or were expected to, so those random encounters with your hirelings might or might not be played off camera.  Depends how big it is. ToEE was pretty darn big, and yes, we certainly spent more than 5 nights in it. Do we never come out? We came out a couple times, but also spent nights camped out in a secured room, with someone standing guard, hoping we wouldn't get random encounters.  I don't know who told you that can never happen and that you'll get killed that way. There's actually quite a bit written about it in AD&D and even some spells specifically designed to facilitate the practice. Did we fall back and, oh look, there's a camp right there? Not often, like I said. We had a DM who kinda figured that once someone noticed the guards we killed were dead, that they'd be replaced, defenses would be increased, and the whole place would be on general alert. That's living dungeon design. Admittedly, it made it harder to stroll around dungeons with our Little Red Flyers stealing sofas to sell at the used furniture store, but in the end I feel it was worth it. Why were we gone so long? Have you seen the size of the Temple of Elemental Evil? It's kinda big. It's not me pretending that we had the sense of concussed badgers (which I have no experience with because we always coup de graced any badgers that dropped below 0 hp from non-lethal damage), we just had what was either a really great DM, or a DM that I thought was the standard. A DM who didn't hand waive everything that was slightly inconvenient, or simply let us have our way because he couldn't be bothered to re-evaluate the adventure according to our actions, or evaluated the scenario impartially and logically. I thought a DM who made the game fun and challenging was the base expectation.  Right, it's not, because, y'know...the rules. Never saw a DM deny someone a level. See above for why that might be. Hint: It's something to do with having a DM who functions according to the guidelines given in the rules.  I've never had a problem with the content in the AD&D DMG. Never found it antagonistic, never found my DM adversarial, was never adversarial in my DMing. Never had anyone lose bladder control, cry, or rage quit at my table. I remember some spirited debates, differences of opinion, rules discussions, all of it civil and friendly. It was awesome.   It's not arbitrary. There are guidlines for it. Guidelines...rules...written before anyone even played.  It was clearly stated why that treasure might not be counted as xp. A 20th level wizard stealing dinnerware from 20 kobolds isn't really being challenged. As per the rules. The guys killing the dragon, probably challenged. It has nothing to do with whether the monster was killed first. It has to do with whether or not the monster was a challenge.  AD&D didn't really advance slowly. You just had to realize everything wasn't going to be handed to you on an electrum plate and you'd actually have to earn your levels.</blockquote>

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