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Message: <blockquote data-quote="ClaytonCross" data-source="post: 7554705" data-attributes="member: 6880599">So GM never uses strength mechanics or role play, players stop using strength, GM blames it on player... got It. lolI would submit the GM is also a player. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />I think players are playing in the GMs world so there does need to be consent to that however I also think a GM has no game if there are no players. Mutual respect and understand works best in my opinion. Almost all characters have some level of min max or they would be the same character, the wizard is smarter than the barbarian and the barbarian is stronger than the wizard. If you want players to use strength make strength useful. I feel like people want to focus on getting cough drops for their cough but have no intent to get anti-biotics or shot for the flu. The cough drops might help but not getting sick or getting better is more effective than reducing a single symptom. This dislike of the use of dexterity is the result of having to deal with this "cough" of players leaning to dex or I really suspect leaning away from Strength. Strength is often diminished my GMs who don't want to wait for players manage inventory or who don't use strength for pretty much anything but combat. So when a GM complains about how strength is not used at their tables its usually for one of 2 reasons. 1. Lack of GM us of strength (ignoring rules like encumbrance, shove, and grapple "because they are annoying and time consuming"). If strength becomes an optimal choice the players will use it... proving they are optimizing but then the GM will have what he is asking for... though that will change if min/max optimizers are really the GMs concern since how they might min/max strength.2. The players like stealth characters but since they are dex based and every player is stealth the GM feels they are optimizing. However, if the GM makes strength important even heavy handed important. These players are still going to play dexterity characters for stealth. At that point if the GM still doesn't like dex its not because it is not because it is optimal or that players are not doing things for narrative reasons. It is because they are successfully avoiding encounters the GM spent hours working on instead of fighting... At that point the GM can ether add NPC scouts with very high perception or talk to the players about the style of game the GM wants to run versus the they way they are playing. If it turns out the GM was a strait forward epic heroes fighting every fight they can still use stealth to gain advantage on fights they just need to know if enemies are there, they are there because the GM wants the players to fight them. If this style is not ok with some of the players then they need to find a GM/game that runs a campaign they agree with. This is often a hard conversation though because most groups are friends and want to play with them so the GM doesn't want to tell the players no stealth if they are going to leave and the players don't want to play a game where they have to fight everything and other means are off the table limiting the style of play. That said the GM will never be happy submitting to the players but most players can play in different games rotating GM so they can have different styles. The players have more flexibility here than a GM does. After all you want to run the game you want to run but you and play different types with different GMs as a player.</blockquote>

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