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<blockquote data-quote="Mr. Kaze" data-source="post: 1597348" data-attributes="member: 8848">Okay, so what I'm hearing here isn't that the game is &quot;me vs. them&quot; but &quot;them doing the same 'ol stuff and I'm getting bored (and am afraid that they are too).&quot;&nbsp; And that's how we get to the &quot;how do I keep my players on their toes?&quot; question.1) Force lots of saves.&nbsp; If your mooks have any chance of hitting at all (don't forget ambushes from which you might get somebody flat-footed), give them poisonous weapons.&nbsp; I nearly killed a PC troll with a yuan-ti poison ambush just by the averages for the poison saves.2) Don't give them saves.&nbsp; Look for the spells that don't give saves -- as I recall, Enervation and Ray of Enfeelbement should be able to do a number on a party, and a few unexpected Enervations in a single round might out-and-out kill somebody.3) Cast from cover.&nbsp; A wizard with Invisibility on itself can summon in untold hoards of monsters without breaking the invisibility... party walks by and a silenced Summon Monster IV later, the party wizard is suddenly flanked by raging fiendish wolverines that make well enough noise of their own to mask the next casting...4) Associated class levels aren't often worth the cost.&nbsp; Use unassociated class levels to boost saves and give better tactical options.&nbsp; Why give wizard levels to a Slaad when you can give them twice as many rogue levels instead?&nbsp; Fill in the weaknesses instead of piling on the strengths.&lt;sarcasm&gt;5) Oh, and put a freakin' portable hole under that Rope Trick when nobody's paying attention.&nbsp; &lt;/sarcasm&gt;::Kaze (did away with &quot;any 2-bit wizard can make extradimensional spaces, sure, no problem!&quot; first thing in his campaign)</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Mr. Kaze, post: 1597348, member: 8848"] Okay, so what I'm hearing here isn't that the game is "me vs. them" but "them doing the same 'ol stuff and I'm getting bored (and am afraid that they are too)." And that's how we get to the "how do I keep my players on their toes?" question. 1) Force lots of saves. If your mooks have any chance of hitting at all (don't forget ambushes from which you might get somebody flat-footed), give them poisonous weapons. I nearly killed a PC troll with a yuan-ti poison ambush just by the averages for the poison saves. 2) Don't give them saves. Look for the spells that don't give saves -- as I recall, Enervation and Ray of Enfeelbement should be able to do a number on a party, and a few unexpected Enervations in a single round might out-and-out kill somebody. 3) Cast from cover. A wizard with Invisibility on itself can summon in untold hoards of monsters without breaking the invisibility... party walks by and a silenced Summon Monster IV later, the party wizard is suddenly flanked by raging fiendish wolverines that make well enough noise of their own to mask the next casting... 4) Associated class levels aren't often worth the cost. Use unassociated class levels to boost saves and give better tactical options. Why give wizard levels to a Slaad when you can give them twice as many rogue levels instead? Fill in the weaknesses instead of piling on the strengths. <sarcasm> 5) Oh, and put a freakin' portable hole under that Rope Trick when nobody's paying attention. </sarcasm> ::Kaze (did away with "any 2-bit wizard can make extradimensional spaces, sure, no problem!" first thing in his campaign) [/QUOTE]

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