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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 7494080" data-attributes="member: 4937">I have no idea why you'd flex to Tegal Manor.So, here is what I'm getting from your stories.1) They players have a very low trust in you.  They are acting as if they are playing in a 'gotcha' adversarial game world where you will twist everything they do against them.2) The players aren't having much fun.  They are trying to create their own fun by doing zany disruptive things on purpose.  I can totally sympathize with your frustration with that sort of personality.  The one sort of player I can't stand is one that is always taking irrational actions that are contrary even to their own aesthetics of play.  I've got this one player that clearly has the aesthetic of play of approbation - he plays to win approval from others.  But his attempts to draw attention to himself are so contrary to the interests of his own character and the rest of the party, that he naturally invites scorn and frustration rather than the praise he wants.  But rather than say, "Ok, I'll try something else.", he just doubles down on the behavior in a sort of false bravado of "this is just who I am".   I want to just shake him, "No dude.  Who you are is an insecure person desperate for approval who could easily win approval if you'd just #$@$ing use your brain to solve problems rather than create them."   But, yeah, I can't do that so he' s going to continue to be a problem at the table.   Seems there is always one in every group.3) The group has the overall maturity level of a bunch of 15 year old boys.  Everyone is irritated, angsty, and unpleasant, including I would guess you, because as frustrated as you are, its certainly going to come out in your play.4) You want a very old school sandbox game with players that take the game seriously, 'step on up', and act with a lot of agency and initiative.  Your players on the other hand want to relax, blow off some steam, joke around, and probably would be much happier with some sort of railroad that provides structure - even if only to have something obvious to rebel against.So if you don't want to provide them with a game where they can indulge their evil impulses (for me, if I have 'that party', I declare an 'anti-campaign' where the only allowed races are goblins, hobgoblins, kobolds, and the like, and everyone is basically encouraged to play a the chaotic stupid character that they are going to play anyway), then I again ask you, is there any game which you would enjoy running that the group would enjoy playing?</blockquote>

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