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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Kishin" data-source="post: 3061278" data-attributes="member: 40956">If all Fighters can do is Fight, and Mages and Clerics can simulate their ability in doing so well with a spell (Tenser's Transformation and Divine Power, the latter of which is available rather early), they're already worming their way into that Fighter's 'party role'. But that's a relatively minor fault. If your mage's offensive power is being surpassed by a Fighter with a greatsword, then your mage is poor one. Sure, the Fighter may do more HP damage per hit, but anyone will tell you that blasting isn't where the power lies at higher levels. After a certain point, Save or Die becomes a dominant force, and well, a Fighter can't exactly Weird and cause everything in 30 feet to drop dead. Nor can he remove an opponent from the fight near permanently unless they lack two specific spells, or a companion with those spells (Forcecage). Additionally, a Fighter against an opponent wielding these effects is virtually helpless. You can argue that dealing with spellcasters isn't their 'party role', but it doesn't change the fact that its not very fun when in a magic-enabled fight (which only increase in frequency as level increases), the fighter's party role becomes 'be rendered helpless and/or die.'But as you said, you simply don't see it that way, and never will, no matter how much you read the book or how much people explain it to you. I've yet to see anyone change anyone else's opinion on matters like this if they don't want it to be changed.(P.S. On a related note to the earlier mention of Forcecage, one of the greatest things I think ToB introduces is the manuever Iron Heart Surge, which when expended, effectively negates the effect of a single spell presently active on the user, finally giving melee characters a chance something to do against Forcecage or Evard's Black Tentacles other than stand there and die.)</blockquote>

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