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<blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 6341256" data-attributes="member: 996">If acting heroic gets you killed (and, absent a little DM tweaking or intervention, in most eds of D&amp;D at low levels, it will), then 'skill at playing' that avoids getting you killed is just plain learning not to act heroic.&nbsp; Legitimate, if the aim is a dark or 'low' fantasy or fantasy Vietnam or whatever, where cunning anti-heroes go around murdering the marginally-worse villains, life is cheap, and death is a constant companion....I get that some people want D&amp;D to just do fantasy Vietnam like that, and others want it to do high fantasy by default.&nbsp; And, I get that 5e has tried to accommodate both by making Apprentice Tier lethal.&nbsp; It just strikes me as a very poor way to nominally support both styles.&nbsp; For one thing, while skipping a few levels is NBD for those wanting heroic play, it's ridiculous to cut off so many levels of play for the grim &amp; gritty set.&nbsp; For another, it's bizarre to dump new players into that minefield by default, then expect them to do a 180 and get all high-fantasy after that.&nbsp; This is another case where I have to ask &quot;where's the modularity?&quot;</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Tony Vargas, post: 6341256, member: 996"] If acting heroic gets you killed (and, absent a little DM tweaking or intervention, in most eds of D&D at low levels, it will), then 'skill at playing' that avoids getting you killed is just plain learning not to act heroic. Legitimate, if the aim is a dark or 'low' fantasy or fantasy Vietnam or whatever, where cunning anti-heroes go around murdering the marginally-worse villains, life is cheap, and death is a constant companion. ... I get that some people want D&D to just do fantasy Vietnam like that, and others want it to do high fantasy by default. And, I get that 5e has tried to accommodate both by making Apprentice Tier lethal. It just strikes me as a very poor way to nominally support both styles. For one thing, while skipping a few levels is NBD for those wanting heroic play, it's ridiculous to cut off so many levels of play for the grim & gritty set. For another, it's bizarre to dump new players into that minefield by default, then expect them to do a 180 and get all high-fantasy after that. This is another case where I have to ask "where's the modularity?" [/QUOTE]

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