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My Paladin killed a child molester (and now my DM wants to take away my powers!)
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<blockquote data-quote="Al" data-source="post: 1564705" data-attributes="member: 2486"><p><strong>Deconstructing the Paladin's Code</strong></p><p></p><p>It is largely uncontested that the paladin committed a Good act. Protecting the innocent from an almost certainly Evil man is Good.</p><p></p><p>The problem arises when one considers the paladin's code: here I will cite two points of obvious conflict: the "respect" of "legitimate authority" and the fact that a paladin must "act with honour".</p><p></p><p><strong>"Respect of Legitimate Authority"</strong> </p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>This comment in particular, and others, have demonstrated a fundamental misunderstanding of what respecting the legitimate authority means. Respect of legitimate authority does not mean doffing your hat and saying 'Yes, Guv', when Lord Goodheart asks you to fetch him a cup of tea. Respecting legitimate authority means that one acknowledges that, where the authority is non-evil and preferably non-chaotic, that the established magistracies and prevailing laws takes precedence over the paladin's code. Where there is a gross violation, then the authority has 'delegitimises' itself. An authority which ruled that nobles had the right to rape peasants had 'delegitimised' itself, at least with regard to that particular law. Insofar as the local authority acts in a legitimate fashion, the paladin is bound to acquiesce in spite of his personal predilection. For example, if the molester was brought to court and the paladin thought him worthy of death but the local jurists sentenced him to twenty years' hard labour, then he must accept their laws. Laws are derived from society, and the paladin must respect that.</p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>In the example cited, then we come across the classical notion of conceiving a set of predetermined axioms and drawing conclusions based from them. The problem is that these axioms are not always valid. If the city militia respect the paladin's right to dole out punishment, he is not merely respecting legitimate authority- he *is* legitimate authority. However, the problem arises where this is not the case. Depending on the local laws, the church to which the paladin is dedicated may or may not represent a valid part of law enforcement. If local law specifically permits paladins to punish, he is part of legitimate authority; otherwise, he is disrespecting it.</p><p></p><p>It is thus inconceivable to argue that the paladin is simultaneously outside local authority and for him to respect it- either he is part of it (which was not postulated) or he inherently disrespects it by subjugating it to his personal morality.</p><p></p><p><strong>"Act with Honour"</strong> </p><p></p><p>This is a more straightforward one. "Not lying, not cheating, not using poison, etc" has a coherent theme. Now, those who are familiar with my posts may know that I have sometimes advocated the ability of a paladin to use covert methods for the 'greater good'. However, the argument I have always deployed is that of 'final option'. Moreover, when a paladin is forced to lie to protect his innocents, he does not break his code but merely exerts a balance between the different sections: "act with honour" as against "protect innocents" (and IMHO the latter ought be the predominant).</p><p></p><p>In this scenario, no such 'final option' exists. As has been repeatedly articulated throughout the thread, there were a myriad of non-lethal methods of dealing with the man, from subduing him to arrest. Attacking an unarmed opponent of grossly inferior combat ability who posed no discernible threat and had his pants down is dishonourable. It places an already vastly weaker opponent at even more of a disadvantage. As has already been argued, the paladin could logically reason that the man was no threat. This is no argument to say 'oh well, may as well attack from behind unseen'. Honour is not utilitarian. It is not balancing the odds of the man winning and coming to zero in either scenario. Honour is the principle of allowing an opponent a reasonable chance to defend himself, particularly if that opponent is already a negligent threat. Indeed, the man's pathetic nature made honour *more* not less valid- had the paedophile been a 10th level wizard, the paladin could have perhaps eschewed his honour in order to be certain of "help[ing] those in need". Here, the paladin could and should have done both.</p><p></p><p>The paladin thus acted dishonourably.</p><p></p><p>Nevertheless, I would argue that whilst the code was breached, it was not a "gross violation". Some removal of certain powers might be appropriate- the loss of his Aura of Courage (to represent dishonour) and his Divine Grace (since this is based upon the compact between paladin and god) would probably be the most reasonable outcome.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Al, post: 1564705, member: 2486"] [b]Deconstructing the Paladin's Code[/b] It is largely uncontested that the paladin committed a Good act. Protecting the innocent from an almost certainly Evil man is Good. The problem arises when one considers the paladin's code: here I will cite two points of obvious conflict: the "respect" of "legitimate authority" and the fact that a paladin must "act with honour". [B]"Respect of Legitimate Authority"[/B] This comment in particular, and others, have demonstrated a fundamental misunderstanding of what respecting the legitimate authority means. Respect of legitimate authority does not mean doffing your hat and saying 'Yes, Guv', when Lord Goodheart asks you to fetch him a cup of tea. Respecting legitimate authority means that one acknowledges that, where the authority is non-evil and preferably non-chaotic, that the established magistracies and prevailing laws takes precedence over the paladin's code. Where there is a gross violation, then the authority has 'delegitimises' itself. An authority which ruled that nobles had the right to rape peasants had 'delegitimised' itself, at least with regard to that particular law. Insofar as the local authority acts in a legitimate fashion, the paladin is bound to acquiesce in spite of his personal predilection. For example, if the molester was brought to court and the paladin thought him worthy of death but the local jurists sentenced him to twenty years' hard labour, then he must accept their laws. Laws are derived from society, and the paladin must respect that. In the example cited, then we come across the classical notion of conceiving a set of predetermined axioms and drawing conclusions based from them. The problem is that these axioms are not always valid. If the city militia respect the paladin's right to dole out punishment, he is not merely respecting legitimate authority- he *is* legitimate authority. However, the problem arises where this is not the case. Depending on the local laws, the church to which the paladin is dedicated may or may not represent a valid part of law enforcement. If local law specifically permits paladins to punish, he is part of legitimate authority; otherwise, he is disrespecting it. It is thus inconceivable to argue that the paladin is simultaneously outside local authority and for him to respect it- either he is part of it (which was not postulated) or he inherently disrespects it by subjugating it to his personal morality. [B]"Act with Honour"[/B] This is a more straightforward one. "Not lying, not cheating, not using poison, etc" has a coherent theme. Now, those who are familiar with my posts may know that I have sometimes advocated the ability of a paladin to use covert methods for the 'greater good'. However, the argument I have always deployed is that of 'final option'. Moreover, when a paladin is forced to lie to protect his innocents, he does not break his code but merely exerts a balance between the different sections: "act with honour" as against "protect innocents" (and IMHO the latter ought be the predominant). In this scenario, no such 'final option' exists. As has been repeatedly articulated throughout the thread, there were a myriad of non-lethal methods of dealing with the man, from subduing him to arrest. Attacking an unarmed opponent of grossly inferior combat ability who posed no discernible threat and had his pants down is dishonourable. It places an already vastly weaker opponent at even more of a disadvantage. As has already been argued, the paladin could logically reason that the man was no threat. This is no argument to say 'oh well, may as well attack from behind unseen'. Honour is not utilitarian. It is not balancing the odds of the man winning and coming to zero in either scenario. Honour is the principle of allowing an opponent a reasonable chance to defend himself, particularly if that opponent is already a negligent threat. Indeed, the man's pathetic nature made honour *more* not less valid- had the paedophile been a 10th level wizard, the paladin could have perhaps eschewed his honour in order to be certain of "help[ing] those in need". Here, the paladin could and should have done both. The paladin thus acted dishonourably. Nevertheless, I would argue that whilst the code was breached, it was not a "gross violation". Some removal of certain powers might be appropriate- the loss of his Aura of Courage (to represent dishonour) and his Divine Grace (since this is based upon the compact between paladin and god) would probably be the most reasonable outcome. [/QUOTE]
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