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My Paladin killed a child molester (and now my DM wants to take away my powers!)
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<blockquote data-quote="DM-Rocco" data-source="post: 1570261" data-attributes="member: 14451"><p>Well, forgive me for not reading all 25 pages of posts, whew, this is a big one.</p><p></p><p>Really, this comes down to two things, what are the vows or code of conduct that you have sworn an oath to and what are the guidelines that the DM has laid out for you?</p><p></p><p>This is a bit old school, but a good example of the code of conduct can be found in the Unearthed Arcana, the old one written by Gary Gygax from May 1 1985. On page 16 it has a very well written code of conduct, something that I make all Paladins in my game swear too, with a few extras of my own.</p><p></p><p>For those that don't have it, this is what it says:</p><p></p><p><strong>Noble service cheerfully rendered</strong></p><p></p><p><strong>Defense of any charge unto death'</strong></p><p></p><p><strong>Courage and enterprise in obedience to rule</strong></p><p></p><p><strong>Respect for all peers and equals</strong></p><p></p><p><strong>Honor to all above your station</strong></p><p></p><p><strong>Obedience and respect from all beneath your station</strong></p><p><strong>Scorn for those who are lowly and ignoble (this includes knightly limitations on weapons and armor)</strong></p><p></p><p><strong>Military prowess exercised in service to your lord</strong></p><p></p><p><strong>Courtesy to all ladies (if the cavalier is male)</strong></p><p></p><p><strong>War is the flowering of chivalry</strong></p><p></p><p><strong>Battle is the test of manhood</strong></p><p></p><p><strong>Combat is glory</strong></p><p></p><p><strong>Personal glory above all in battle</strong></p><p></p><p><strong>Death to all who oppose the cause</strong></p><p></p><p><strong>Death before dishonor</strong></p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>I usually add a few more, but this should be a basis for the code of conduct for any Paladin. Once more, it was written by the original creator of the game, so you get a feel for the intent behind the need for the code.</p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>It speaks volumes about personal glory in battle and chivalry, but a few stick out at pertaining to this situation.</p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p><strong>Scorn for those who are lowly and ignoble (this includes knightly limitations on weapons and armor)</strong></p><p></p><p>While fighting for a noble purpose is right and just, a Paladin must always maintain the spirit of the law. They must lead by example. Scorn for those who are lowly means just that, but it doesn't dictate that one should slay all of the ignoble and lowly. As an example, it mentions including knightly limitations on weapons and armor, this meant, back in the day, that a Paladin will strive to use honorable weapons and quality armor. No clubs or missile weapons because you cannot gain honor in combat by hiding behind a log and firing arrows. If you take this to mean that you should slay all who use such weapons, then you will always be at war with the elves, good luck on that one.</p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p><strong>Death to all who oppose the cause</strong></p><p></p><p>This might be the one thing that could save your character, but you still have a reputation to maintain. If this child pervert is directly opposed to your cause, which I hope he would be, then you are partially just in your action. However, your actions are still not justifyable. You are a man of God and law and others in society constantly look towards you for guidance, leadership and morale fibers that keep everyone from becoming a mob. Let's take a quick note from recent history, President Bush and the prisoner scandal (note, I am not trying to be political here or trying to compare Bush with a Paladin, for any nut who wants to pick a political fight, keep it to yourself, I am just using this as an example to a recent event that I think he may be able to better relate to).</p><p></p><p>President Bush, if he were to walk into the prison and see members of his army doing these deeds that the American army is accused of, if he then picked up a gun and blew away his own men and women, he would be in the wrong, and that, to a degree, is what you did by killing this child molester without trail. It was not for you to play the role of the judge, jury and executor (you are not Judge Dread). You should have responded as President Bush did, place them on trail and let the courts deal with them. </p><p></p><p> On the other hand, you get a situation like Nick Burg, the American who had his head chopped off in retaliation for the prisoner abuse scandal. Whether you see it or not, your actions are more akin to the terrorist than to a Paladin. (Okay, I don't think I played any politicial card there, so let's not have any comments like, well Nader would have done this, or Kerry would have done that, okay)</p><p></p><p>About the only way you could twist this part of the code your way is if you were appointed as a magistrate for the city in question and had the political power to carry out such a one sided justice. However, you still didn't give the man a chance to talk. You seem to have a bit of a perverted and grim campiagn going on, so something like this might be common place, however, is that what happened really what happened.</p><p></p><p> Perhaps the man was going to his room to make love to his girlfriend, who was a halfling (who can at times appear as small children). Perhaps they had a kinky thing going on where they liked to role-play. I'm sure that is not what happened, but you never gave the man the chance to talk. You may have killed an innocent.</p><p></p><p></p><p><strong>Death before dishonor</strong></p><p></p><p>Really, you have dishonored your God and your beliefs. You should take your own life for the disgrace, but that is part of what atonement is for. If you did it again I would say that you are in a pickle.</p><p></p><p><strong>Your DM</strong></p><p></p><p>Ultimately it is up to your DM. He should have laid down a code for you to follow and if you broke it then it is your fault. If he didn't give you a code, you are still partially to blame since he did warn you that you would be killing and unarmed man from behind. This should have sent warning bells into your head.</p><p></p><p>I am not so worried from an Alignment stand point, PHB 3.5, page 103, a lawful good character may have a greedy streak that occasionally tempts him to take something or hoard something he has, even if that's not lawful or good behavior. While this is a bit more than stealing something, as a DM of 23 years, I might over look it, at least more than the breaking of the code.</p><p></p><p>The long of it short is, you are a morale pillar to the masses and must lead by example. You should have bound him and dragged him before a court of law. Unless you had either the weight of the city on your shoulders by being appointed to a position where you could have such authority (but you should still bring him in rather than kill him) or you are in a lawless land where Chaotic NPCs rule the country with an iron fist and bringing him to trial would result in a dismissal of the crime (but if you don't have previous knowledge of this you should still bring him to trail, you can't go on a hunch or the actions of a few local inn patrons)</p><p> </p><p>Just for the record, I was on your side when I started out, however, I see many of different solutions that you could have made. Knowing only that fact that I saw on your first post, you have choosen poorly.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="DM-Rocco, post: 1570261, member: 14451"] Well, forgive me for not reading all 25 pages of posts, whew, this is a big one. Really, this comes down to two things, what are the vows or code of conduct that you have sworn an oath to and what are the guidelines that the DM has laid out for you? This is a bit old school, but a good example of the code of conduct can be found in the Unearthed Arcana, the old one written by Gary Gygax from May 1 1985. On page 16 it has a very well written code of conduct, something that I make all Paladins in my game swear too, with a few extras of my own. For those that don't have it, this is what it says: [b]Noble service cheerfully rendered[/b] [b]Defense of any charge unto death'[/b] [b]Courage and enterprise in obedience to rule[/b] [b]Respect for all peers and equals[/b] [b]Honor to all above your station[/b] [b]Obedience and respect from all beneath your station[/b] [b]Scorn for those who are lowly and ignoble (this includes knightly limitations on weapons and armor)[/b] [b]Military prowess exercised in service to your lord[/b] [b]Courtesy to all ladies (if the cavalier is male)[/b] [b]War is the flowering of chivalry[/b] [b]Battle is the test of manhood[/b] [b]Combat is glory[/b] [b]Personal glory above all in battle[/b] [b]Death to all who oppose the cause[/b] [b]Death before dishonor[/b] I usually add a few more, but this should be a basis for the code of conduct for any Paladin. Once more, it was written by the original creator of the game, so you get a feel for the intent behind the need for the code. It speaks volumes about personal glory in battle and chivalry, but a few stick out at pertaining to this situation. [b]Scorn for those who are lowly and ignoble (this includes knightly limitations on weapons and armor)[/b] While fighting for a noble purpose is right and just, a Paladin must always maintain the spirit of the law. They must lead by example. Scorn for those who are lowly means just that, but it doesn't dictate that one should slay all of the ignoble and lowly. As an example, it mentions including knightly limitations on weapons and armor, this meant, back in the day, that a Paladin will strive to use honorable weapons and quality armor. No clubs or missile weapons because you cannot gain honor in combat by hiding behind a log and firing arrows. If you take this to mean that you should slay all who use such weapons, then you will always be at war with the elves, good luck on that one. [b]Death to all who oppose the cause[/b] This might be the one thing that could save your character, but you still have a reputation to maintain. If this child pervert is directly opposed to your cause, which I hope he would be, then you are partially just in your action. However, your actions are still not justifyable. You are a man of God and law and others in society constantly look towards you for guidance, leadership and morale fibers that keep everyone from becoming a mob. Let's take a quick note from recent history, President Bush and the prisoner scandal (note, I am not trying to be political here or trying to compare Bush with a Paladin, for any nut who wants to pick a political fight, keep it to yourself, I am just using this as an example to a recent event that I think he may be able to better relate to). President Bush, if he were to walk into the prison and see members of his army doing these deeds that the American army is accused of, if he then picked up a gun and blew away his own men and women, he would be in the wrong, and that, to a degree, is what you did by killing this child molester without trail. It was not for you to play the role of the judge, jury and executor (you are not Judge Dread). You should have responded as President Bush did, place them on trail and let the courts deal with them. On the other hand, you get a situation like Nick Burg, the American who had his head chopped off in retaliation for the prisoner abuse scandal. Whether you see it or not, your actions are more akin to the terrorist than to a Paladin. (Okay, I don't think I played any politicial card there, so let's not have any comments like, well Nader would have done this, or Kerry would have done that, okay) About the only way you could twist this part of the code your way is if you were appointed as a magistrate for the city in question and had the political power to carry out such a one sided justice. However, you still didn't give the man a chance to talk. You seem to have a bit of a perverted and grim campiagn going on, so something like this might be common place, however, is that what happened really what happened. Perhaps the man was going to his room to make love to his girlfriend, who was a halfling (who can at times appear as small children). Perhaps they had a kinky thing going on where they liked to role-play. I'm sure that is not what happened, but you never gave the man the chance to talk. You may have killed an innocent. [b]Death before dishonor[/b] Really, you have dishonored your God and your beliefs. You should take your own life for the disgrace, but that is part of what atonement is for. If you did it again I would say that you are in a pickle. [b]Your DM[/b] Ultimately it is up to your DM. He should have laid down a code for you to follow and if you broke it then it is your fault. If he didn't give you a code, you are still partially to blame since he did warn you that you would be killing and unarmed man from behind. This should have sent warning bells into your head. I am not so worried from an Alignment stand point, PHB 3.5, page 103, a lawful good character may have a greedy streak that occasionally tempts him to take something or hoard something he has, even if that's not lawful or good behavior. While this is a bit more than stealing something, as a DM of 23 years, I might over look it, at least more than the breaking of the code. The long of it short is, you are a morale pillar to the masses and must lead by example. You should have bound him and dragged him before a court of law. Unless you had either the weight of the city on your shoulders by being appointed to a position where you could have such authority (but you should still bring him in rather than kill him) or you are in a lawless land where Chaotic NPCs rule the country with an iron fist and bringing him to trial would result in a dismissal of the crime (but if you don't have previous knowledge of this you should still bring him to trail, you can't go on a hunch or the actions of a few local inn patrons) Just for the record, I was on your side when I started out, however, I see many of different solutions that you could have made. Knowing only that fact that I saw on your first post, you have choosen poorly. [/QUOTE]
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