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<blockquote data-quote="Bacon Bits" data-source="post: 6651296" data-attributes="member: 6777737">It seems to me that they dislike the basic fundamentals of 5e's design.&nbsp; The things they state they like about Pathfinder are precisely what frustrated me with that system and 3.x, and the things they dislike are what appealed to me about 5e.Fifteen years ago I'd probably agree with a lot of their criticisms coming off 1e and 2e, but it turns out that I don't dislike rules light systems.&nbsp; I just dislike ass-backwards mechanics and a DM vs player culture.&nbsp; Not that 5e is rules light, per se, it's just that it is in comparison to Pathfinder/3.x, which are so dense they may be candidates for Stephen Hawking's next book.Personally, I no longer want every character choice to have an associated mechanic expressed in a book somewhere and listed on my character sheet with the associated bonus to my d20 roll.&nbsp; I love making things up that aren't in my book.&nbsp; I like being invested in the adventure and the roleplaying more than the character advancement and rewards.&nbsp; I like that it's less like a video game.&nbsp; I like that I don't need to dig through six different books to find the combination of mechanics that will define my character, and instead I have to make a character instead of a collection of an assortment of arbitrary combat abilities.&nbsp; I like that rewards generally reward the character, not the player.&nbsp; I don't need a carrot to play the game anymore.&nbsp; Not everybody is going to like that, however.What other systems have you guys played?&nbsp; Did you try 4e at all?&nbsp; How about Savage Worlds?&nbsp; 13th Age?&nbsp; Fate?I only ask that because I would say you only have a major problem if you're frustrated with or burned out on Pathfinder and are completely in love with 5e.&nbsp; Because then the DM wants to play one game and the players want to play another.&nbsp; I'd recommend a break from D&amp;D for awhile, in that case.&nbsp; Try running something that's not traditional fantasy.&nbsp; Savage Worlds Deadlands is a blast.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Bacon Bits, post: 6651296, member: 6777737"] It seems to me that they dislike the basic fundamentals of 5e's design. The things they state they like about Pathfinder are precisely what frustrated me with that system and 3.x, and the things they dislike are what appealed to me about 5e. Fifteen years ago I'd probably agree with a lot of their criticisms coming off 1e and 2e, but it turns out that I don't dislike rules light systems. I just dislike ass-backwards mechanics and a DM vs player culture. Not that 5e is rules light, per se, it's just that it is in comparison to Pathfinder/3.x, which are so dense they may be candidates for Stephen Hawking's next book. Personally, I no longer want every character choice to have an associated mechanic expressed in a book somewhere and listed on my character sheet with the associated bonus to my d20 roll. I love making things up that aren't in my book. I like being invested in the adventure and the roleplaying more than the character advancement and rewards. I like that it's [I]less[/I] like a video game. I like that I don't need to dig through six different books to find the combination of mechanics that will define my character, and instead I have to make [I]a character[/I] instead of a collection of an assortment of arbitrary combat abilities. I like that rewards generally reward the character, not the player. I don't need a carrot to play the game anymore. Not everybody is going to like that, however. What other systems have you guys played? Did you try 4e at all? How about Savage Worlds? 13th Age? Fate? I only ask that because I would say you only have a major problem if you're frustrated with or burned out on Pathfinder and are completely in love with 5e. Because then the DM wants to play one game and the players want to play another. I'd recommend a break from D&D for awhile, in that case. Try running something that's not traditional fantasy. Savage Worlds Deadlands is a blast. [/QUOTE]

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