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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Jester David" data-source="post: 6651321" data-attributes="member: 37579">Players or player? That diatribe seemed like a singular vision? Or is it one holdout being vocal and a bunch of easier going players following along?The magic item critique is a little flawed. It's not that magic items don't exist or that you won't get any (you'll actually get a lot) it's just that magic items are not in the player's hands any more and are not assumed for the math of the game. This means you don't HAVE to spend all your gold of magic items just to remain competitive with the monsters. 3e/PF and 4e assume that all of your gold is either going to permanent magic items or consumable magic items with none being spent on anything else. You really didn't get treasure, you got payments on a new +3 sword. Which led to the awkward situation of adventurers seeking treasure to buy magic to fight harder monsters to buy magic to fight harder monsters... There was never a clear motive for the adventure, and only ever the illusion of progress.Gold you get in 5e is pure bonus. And any magic item you gain makes you better. But, yeah, magic items are no longer part of the PC's build and players can no longer pick and choose magic like they would feats or skill ranks. Which is awkward for anyone who likes the game-within-the-game of "build the character". Other than that, arguing with the players won't seem to do much good. The person in the post seems super opinionated to rant that much about his dislikes. Engaging him in a debate will only make him defensive. So don't even try. You're not going to convince him with words/ The best way would be to mandate a small mini campaign. Something to actually let them try the game and see it in action for a set length of time (more than a session). And after that you can decide. Present it as a trial game. If they don't like it, it was a nice break to the regular campaign and a chance to try a different type of character, and everyone can get back to what you were running previous. If they like it, they can start a new 5e campaign (or convert the existing campaign) over. Grab an adventure and convert. Either find a classic you like from 1e/2e. Or maybe a 3e one like <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Dungeons-Dragons-Fantasy-Roleplaying-Adventure/dp/0786939389" target="_blank">Red Hand of Doom</a>. Or grab a Pathfinder one. <a href="http://paizo.com/products/btpy93qw?Pathfinder-Module-Tears-at-Bitter-Manor" target="_blank">Tears at Bitter Manor</a> might be good. Something that starts after 1st level, so they can get a taste of higher level play.Just ask that they keep an open mind and try and have fun. If they're not even trying to enjoy themselves, then any feedback they give will be coloured.There might be some sunk cost fallacy or edition warring at work. If the players have spent a lot of money on Pathfinder then they're incentivized to keep using that game. (Who buys the game books? Who bought the 5e books?)</blockquote>

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