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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celtavian" data-source="post: 6656726" data-attributes="member: 5834">Can't disagree with the last part. Mythological figures could do other things according to the needs of the story. If a mythological figure needed superhuman strength, they had it. If they needed to be able regenerated, they had it. It all depends.Because gods and goddesses could do many things. Circe was a goddess-level magician in a story. There would be no limits on her capabilities other than those imposed by the author. If they required her to do other things, they would have made her do so. They did little in the story because mythology had no interest in the development of character or story. They incorporated enough to suit the story. It does not mean they didn't have the power to do more. Merlin was rumored to have other powers. Morganna Lef Fay knew different types of magic as did the enchantresses that would charm wandering knights on occasion. It depends a great deal on the story.If you're talking modern fantasy, figures like Gandalf had many different powers. He could throw fire like he did on the hill with the wolves. He knew hundreds or more spells for sealing doors. He could scry and send his thoughts. He could fire beams of light harmful to the undead. He could go toe to toe with the equivalent of a Balor in battle. He could fell a stone bridge as he did in Khazad-dum. He could speak with animals. The more modern you get, the more the wizards could do. Mythology is one source used for D&D. Fiction is another one. Wizards in fiction are usually the most powerful ally martial heroes have. If they are the heroes themselves, they usually have immense power greater than their martial comrades. This is modern fiction created before D&D. If we were to study genre tropes, the caster-martial disparity would exist. It's a very pronounced part of fantasy. You might make a better argument of casters being able to fight as well as martials rather than vice versa. A lot of traditional fantasy casters can throw down with a sword now and then.Depends. Sometimes the martial has caster allies, in fact this occurs quite often in modern fantasy. The caster ally is usually more powerful than the martials present. One of the most powerful people in the world. Depends. Gandalf was quite powerful. So was Merlin. Then again neither was considered human. Modern fantasy had quite a few powerful wizards that could throw down.I figured they used Vancian because it was the relatable form of magic. In a lot of fantasy books, the wizard is so much more powerful than the martial allies that they destroy them with a thought. You can't have that level of disparity. That wouldn't be good at all. Tolkien was walking a fine line with Gandalf being able to do too much. Elric was ridiculously powerful with his blade. Wizards in the Conan stories varied a great deal. It was Conan. He always won. It didn't need to make sense. Martial characters are dominant in fantasy because the are relatable, not because they are powerful.Caster dominance is an attempt to model a genre convention in a game system with players making choices rather than authors. Players will never make the stupid mistakes authors make casters make. Caster weakness in a book was manufactured to suit the story. A player playing a caster will never choose to manufacture a weakness if he does not have to. A player will do everything in his power to eliminate a weakness. D&D incorporated enough options to make that possible.That in no way means there isn't a caster-martial disparity genre convention. There most certainly is one. An author is much more capable of manufacturing reasons the caster loses than a DM.I'd rather than wizards more powerful. Magic is more powerful than swinging a sword and should be. Anyone that wields magic should be more fearsome and powerful than one that swings a sword. That's how I envision magic should be in a world. If it isn't, doesn't feel like fantasy to me.You play a martial because you enjoy playing a martial, not to have equal power to a magic user. I hope they never design the game with that type of balance in mind. 5E rogue is the best version of the class in my memory. Amazingly fun and really stands out as useful in all aspects of the game. I'm sure they'll offer such options in time.Not from what I've seen. Fighter has the highest DPR by quite a large margin, especially when novaing.  That is all taken care of in encounter design. We could research books involving martials and casters in great detail. We would find the caster-martial disparity is present in a vast majority of books. Magic is always viewed by authors as a powerful force beyond the mundane power of martial weapon use. It doesn't make a caster unbeatable. It does make them more powerful and possessing a wider breadth of abilities that mundane martials are often incapable of emulating with non-magical means. Authors handle reigning in powerful casters differently than D&D. It is difficult to reign in casters because players are playing them. They will seek to play with vast magical power in a way that allows them to dominate unlike say Gandalf or Merlin in stories who use their magic to manipulate events to suit their desires or mission. Power for power's sake is often not the driving force of a caster in a story. It's very hard to capture that in a D&D adventure because a player wants power for power's sake. A DM can't impose fictional limits on a player that would cause him to use his power in a manner that didn't make him more powerful than his martial counterparts in the long run. It is that product of the game that causes the problem. A player will not role-play the caster role in the group dynamic. Instead a caster will revel in his own abilities even if he is overshadowing his companions. That is what causes the problem with the caster-martial disparity in a game. Though magic as this amazingly powerful force in a fantasy world is common to the fantasy genre, it's trickier to manage this in game play without the caster overshadowing other types of characters because of player agency. I deal with the problem on the backend because I want it to exist as part of the game. A fantasy game doesn't feel right to me unless the wizard/casters are frighteningly powerful at high level.</blockquote>

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