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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 8069663" data-attributes="member: 6801228">Okay, but is it the fault of the monk that they received little to no support in feats and magic items (two "optional" sets of rules that are completely under DM control?)And, I'd argue that they get the major benefit of PAM (a free bonus action attack with mod) at level 1. But if the issue is "there are no feats or magic items designed to make this class better" (By the way makes can use shortswords, so they also have access to just about every magic sword a fighter does) then that can be fixed by designing new feats and magic items. Like Crusher, which is some additional very nice control for a monk character.Sure, Monks need wisdom. But, if they invest in Dexteritity, that is also the same stat they use to attack with and is boosting their AC. In fact, with a 16/16 start, A monk only investing in dexterity can reach AC 18. Only investing in their attack stat. And there is nothing wrong with Focusing Dex and Wisdom, those are two of the best stats in the game. Pigeon-holed? Sure, but it is a strong place to be regardless.Yes, they have less Hp than the fighter. Not going to deny that. But investing in their damage is also investing in their AC. And your point wasn't "they have low hp" it was that they cannot match the at-will out-put of a fighter... But they can. Maybe [USER=6855114]@Helldritch[/USER] is right, and it is only the perception that they are weak if they can't use their bonus abilities, but that perception is not reality.I'm not sure if the Fighter really offers more build options, but I think you are missing a point with the Monk. Most of their subclasses don't spend more Ki, they instead empower the Monk's Flurry of Blows (open hand and drunken master specifically). Shadow does spend Ki, but does so outside of combat generally for very powerful effects. But the point I keep trying to make is that the monk without Ki, before level 11, is not falling behind, unless you are dealing with a -5/+10 feat.Most of the "without magic items" discussions are because the fighter is being given +1 Plate Mail and +1 Shields, or sometimes +2 on each. Meanwhile the monk is given nothing. But, Bracers of Defense are a Shield for Monks, they can wear rings and cloaks of protection. They have magic items that increase their AC too. But, because the designers wanted +3 Plate Mail, but didn't want to stack higher than +3 Armor and +3 Shield, they didn't design +3 Rings of Protection. Frankly, I'd remove the Attunement requirement for Bracers of Defense and make them uncommon (they are literally just a shield for people who can't use shields) and design some new items that are monk specific. But, even with current magic items, a Monk with a Defender Shortsword, Bracers of Defense, A Ring of Protection and a Cloak of Protection, with 20/16 Dex/Wis can have 25 AC every single round. Very similiar to the Fighter with +3 Platemail and +3 Shield (26) People just want the monk to never have any equipment at all, for whatever reason.Huh? What kind of Rogue is getting better than 16 AC by level 2? Are all of your fighters suddenly in plate-mail before level 4? This seems to be a very strong claim over a very broad range with no supporting facts.Edit: Seems this is addressed. You mention healing though, which brings me to another point. Much like the Rogue, the Monk should rarely be in a situation where they can be hit. Both Open Hand and Drunken Master give you ways to stay mobile when using Flurry of Blows, Shadow has their teleportation, ect. In fact, I think Open Hand really highlights the issue with ignoring subclasses. They have the ability to use their Flurry of Blows for more damage, and control, and it allows them to freely disengage with the enemy. Then, they get the only monk healing ability, covering the other issue you see.Yes, the only problem with using hex or hunters mark (I thought about getting it via the Fey-Touched feat before) is the heavy bonus action requirement, but if you need to dish out the damage, adding a single d6 to all four attacks is huge</blockquote>

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