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Message: <blockquote data-quote="NotAYakk" data-source="post: 8070756" data-attributes="member: 72555">Take a dual wielding rogue at level 5 with +4 dex and two short swords against AC 18.Their max damage is 5d6+8 (25.5) and they hit on an 11+, but that doesn't tell the whole story.They have two chances to land their sneak attack damage.  So their sneak attack damage has 75% accuracy, even through their weapon attacks are only 50% accurate.This is why modelling "total damage done" when the kind of damage has different accuracy characteristics gives garbage results.The same thing happens with Paladin Smite damage.  Paladin Smite damage is 100% accurate, while Monk flurry damage ... isn't.  Paladin Smite damage can be doubled if you dole it out slowly (over a long day) with crits, monk damage ... doesn't.  Finally, Paladin Smite damage can be deployed on "tough" fights and not on "not tough" fights.If we have 60% accuracy, each Ki on a 18 dex monk produces +4.7 damage at a max rate of that 1 ki/round.  With 2 short rests, that level 5 monk has 15 Ki, so 70.5 total damageIf we have 60% accuracy, each of the 14d8 smite damage on a PAM paladin produces an average of 4.9 damage per die (due to crits) at a rate of +8.8 damage per round, so 68.25 total damage.If you have 30 rounds/day and 3 attacks/round, and no advantage (!), that Paladin gets 1.5 crits/day.  If they save those for their level 2 smites ('sustained damage'), they have an average of 83.25 smite damage/day, and still have a better ability to focus this damage than a monk.As accuracy goes up, the Paladin can drop smites faster and Ki efficiency goes up.  If you have advantage, the smite efficiency goes up because "random crits" become more likely.Their "daily damage budget" from Ki/Smites ends up being very similar.  Paladins are able to burn their smites down faster than a monk can.Monks get stunning blow (open hand also get their trip attack, which is solid and ki-free).  Paladins can cast bless (on someone dealing ~20 total swing damage, bless is +2.5 DPR, and boosts 3 targets; if it lasts 2 rounds, it outperforms smite)No, monk damage is meh, and cannot be moved upwards.  A min maxed optimized monk deals damage roughly similar to a default non-monk melee.Yes, when comparing Rogues to Monks, we have to consider accuracy.Against an 18 AC target, a level 7 18 dex monk does 2d8+1d6+12 damage, or 12.9 damage per round after accouning for misses.  Each Ki adds +3.9 damage.A level 7 18 dex double-shortsword rogue does 6d6+4.  Of that, 2d6+4 is 50% accurate (5% crit), and 4d6 is 75% accurate (7.5% crit).  17.4 damage per round, on average.If you ignore accuracy, you get 25 rogue vs 24.5 monk (+7.5 from flurry), which makes it look like the Monk is matching the Rogue without Ki, and blowing past the Rogue with Ki; in reality, the Rogue is doing more damage than the Monk burning ki as fast as she can.In short, don't compare differently accurate damage to each other 1:1.  You get garbage results.  If you don't know when you are making that mistake (if you don't know that comparing sneak attack damage to ki damage to smite damage is wrong), always model it against some actual AC.A monk, optimized for combat, is less survivable than other melee and deals meh (not amazing, not horrible) damage.A non-monk, optimized for combat, is as survivable or more than the monk, and deals more damage.And it isn't just a PAM glaive user that matches or exceeds the monk.  Human fighter 6 XBE is 3d6+15 (25.5) at +10 to hit (3 higher than monk) and turns on SS at 8 (loses 3 accuracy compared to monk for ridiculous damage), Spear+Shield PAM paladin 6 is 2d6+1d4+18 (27.5).No, it is 15 damage.  You burn a ki (worth a swing of 7.5) and an attack (worth 7.5) to dodge.Compare to the Rogue; a DW rogue, if they land their main attack, can use their bonus action to disengage (costing them 3.5 "swing" damage) and walk away.  If you want to do the same, it costs you 15 "swing" damage.  What more, by level 6 the Rogue's defensive toy is a resource-free reaction.What more, if that Rogue is being boosted by their allies tactically (say, command or dissonant whispers), they can sneak attack on their reaction instead of defending with it for 5d6+4 (21.5).  That is an example of an optimization ceiling that the Rogue has that the Monk lacks (the monk's equivalent OA is 8.5 damage).OTOH, the "free trip" on the open hand monk is solid.Sorry, I was looking for a CR 1-10 legendary creature.  I thought it had legendary resists.  Ignore my analysis.And no, while Banishment is 0 damage, it is a setup for a full round of damage by the entire party, and a crowd control "kill all allies", and a chance to burn piles of actions recovering.  A creature with a legendary resist should 99/100 use it to stop being banished.  (the same is often true of stunning strike).I chose Banishment because it was a charisma saving throw (low DC).  Strength "you suck if you fail" saves are also good choices.  (wis/con are poor, as most boss monsters have good saves their, int is rare and psi-monsters are smart, dex is almost only damage).</blockquote>

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