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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Imaro" data-source="post: 6169105" data-attributes="member: 48965">I really don't want to get into some pedantic argument here but how are magic items a "party" build item as opposed to a "character" build item?  If you are speaking about consumables... well 13th Age has those as well but if you're speaking to actual magic items in 4e and 3e I'm unclear as to why they are party build items...   Hmm, again with the caveat that I don't believe these items to be "communal" build resources... I didn't really favor this aspect of 4e that much because I have always felt that, for the most part, magic items should be under the purview of the person running the game (of course this doesn't stop a player from having his character do in-game info gathering and seeking to find an item he is interested in).  It's just my particular play style preference of course but I think even with artifacts, 4e went a step to far for me in placing magic items in the PHB and promoting a wish list and magic shop mentality (and no I am not claiming 3e didn't also promote some of this but you were speaking to 4e specifically).  I also think you're mistaken in characterizing the "true" magic items as MacGuffins since the definition of a MacGuffin is only a plot device with no further purpose, but "true" magic items mechanically benefit characters that have them... in fact once the player has a true magic item the only reason for the DM (and possibly the other players) to get involved is when the character decides to carry more true magic items than his level. Until that point I would have no problem with a player role playing out the minor actions and indicators of his items quirks and personalities that may arise since he is still in control of himself and his items. However, IMO, when he chooses to go overboard on the magic stuff... then it's time for the  items to exert their quirks and personalities through the GM/other players on the PC's behavior and I like the sense of real loss of control that would come from others deciding the actions.I can understand the desire for mechanical determination...and I might even consider using it, but I also feel like the player knew what he was getting into when he decided to take on so much power and that depending on the rolls he may not be inconvenienced often enough to make up for the added power of the extra magic item(s)...(I honestly don't know if this is or isn't the case but it's something I would be concerned about). The only reason I don't favor the player himself coming up with the effects is because I think most players will try to find an expression that inconveniences them the least, I mean they are the type of player who went for more magic items in the first place right?  IMO, it's too much of  a conflict of interest for me to feel comfortable leaving up to the player... especially because the extra magic item(s) are actually giving them increased power.  I also don't want to spend 15-20 mins of game time with back and forth between the DM/other players and the overburdened player to determine an appropriate action. I think it makes it more interesting and again more mysterious when part of the inherent danger of too many magic items is in not knowing what the exact effect will be once you put one too many on.  But that's just me and I could totally see a game where the players and DM are comfortable with the player deciding, I think whichever option you go with probably gives a different feel and play dynamic to magic items.</blockquote>

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