Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions
My Special Rules for Nine Alignments in 4E
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Fox Lee" data-source="post: 5406878" data-attributes="member: 4346"><p>I think saying that chaotic good gives you a "flawed outcast" is inappropriate, but aside from that, I see where you're coming from. A protagonist with only one source of opposition (the villain) is pretty primitive; it's the kind of thing that comes more from very old stories (or poor amateur ones). A hero who is clearly in the moral right, <em>and</em> supported by the common folk, <em>and</em> approved of by the relevant authorities, has a lot of potential to be boring.</p><p></p><p>In contemporary fantasy, people certainly seem to prefer an underdog. Loveable Rogue, Loner With a Heart of Gold, Embittered Vigilante, Persecuted Outcast... none of them <em>have</em> to be chaotic, but they're almost certainly not lawful. Or, in other words, modern fantasy thinks most people prefer Batman to Superman, and it's probably right.</p><p></p><p></p><p>If there is a valid reason WotC changed alignments - rather than change for change's sake - it's probably just how misunderstood Law vs Chaos was. As humans, we all (with some exceptions who are probably in prison by now) have a fundamental sense of right and wrong; we wouldn't be such a successful social species if we didn't have that much. We might argue over some aspects of it, like end versus means, but we still all basically get "do unto others" and similar concepts.</p><p></p><p>Law and Chaos, on the other hand, have always been kind of vague. In different places, WotC have used both social/philosophical outlook <em>and</em> personal conduct/mindset to justify a place on the Law/Chaos axis, but where then goes an extremely orderly, methodic individual who opposes the laws of society? What about a person who ignores the laws of society because they consider themselves beholden to a different set of laws - say, an authority like a foreign power or a deity? What about somebody who rigidly follows the letter of the law, but uses the ambuguity of that "letter" to make the laws work the way they want (aka the Sam Vimes debate)? Do you have to be a pro-active anarchist to be chaotic, or is it enough to simply ignore the laws that people try to impose on you? Is a person who obeys the laws not for their inherent value, but out of fear (or perhaps ambivalence), lawful or merely neutral?</p><p></p><p>My group kind of enjoy the ambiguity of nine-axis alignments; it's almost like a puzzle, finding the appropriate place for a particular personality. But the fact that it can be used so loosely probably makes it awkward for new players, and I think that's where WotC is coming from.</p><p></p><p>Or they just didn't want to get caught out describing Law/Chaos in a way that totally contradicts itself, again <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" /></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Fox Lee, post: 5406878, member: 4346"] I think saying that chaotic good gives you a "flawed outcast" is inappropriate, but aside from that, I see where you're coming from. A protagonist with only one source of opposition (the villain) is pretty primitive; it's the kind of thing that comes more from very old stories (or poor amateur ones). A hero who is clearly in the moral right, [i]and[/i] supported by the common folk, [i]and[/i] approved of by the relevant authorities, has a lot of potential to be boring. In contemporary fantasy, people certainly seem to prefer an underdog. Loveable Rogue, Loner With a Heart of Gold, Embittered Vigilante, Persecuted Outcast... none of them [i]have[/i] to be chaotic, but they're almost certainly not lawful. Or, in other words, modern fantasy thinks most people prefer Batman to Superman, and it's probably right. If there is a valid reason WotC changed alignments - rather than change for change's sake - it's probably just how misunderstood Law vs Chaos was. As humans, we all (with some exceptions who are probably in prison by now) have a fundamental sense of right and wrong; we wouldn't be such a successful social species if we didn't have that much. We might argue over some aspects of it, like end versus means, but we still all basically get "do unto others" and similar concepts. Law and Chaos, on the other hand, have always been kind of vague. In different places, WotC have used both social/philosophical outlook [i]and[/i] personal conduct/mindset to justify a place on the Law/Chaos axis, but where then goes an extremely orderly, methodic individual who opposes the laws of society? What about a person who ignores the laws of society because they consider themselves beholden to a different set of laws - say, an authority like a foreign power or a deity? What about somebody who rigidly follows the letter of the law, but uses the ambuguity of that "letter" to make the laws work the way they want (aka the Sam Vimes debate)? Do you have to be a pro-active anarchist to be chaotic, or is it enough to simply ignore the laws that people try to impose on you? Is a person who obeys the laws not for their inherent value, but out of fear (or perhaps ambivalence), lawful or merely neutral? My group kind of enjoy the ambiguity of nine-axis alignments; it's almost like a puzzle, finding the appropriate place for a particular personality. But the fact that it can be used so loosely probably makes it awkward for new players, and I think that's where WotC is coming from. Or they just didn't want to get caught out describing Law/Chaos in a way that totally contradicts itself, again :p [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions
My Special Rules for Nine Alignments in 4E
Top