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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 4077663" data-attributes="member: 4937">I'm pretty solidly in the 4E critic camp.  Getting actually crunchy previews hasn't changed that, and yet it has.I haven't got a chance to play, but I think we have enough rules that I can play in my head and have a good idea of how the game works.  That sentence itself ought to be revealing.  Two days I wouldn't even have cared to try playing 4E.  Looking at the rules, it does seem like combat will be as fun as advertised.  The core gameplay seems appropriately complex, with a large number of decisions and potential synergies.  But at its heart, it seems to me to be a board game and I would most enjoy playing it like a board game.  It looks like it would be great fun for occassional more casual gaming.  I wouldn't even want to role play in a serious manner.  Roleplaying would be a distraction from its core game experience, which involves pushing minatures around a map, doing crazy things, and generally just doing the 'beer and pretzels' sort of thing.  It is a game which is fundamentally suited for playing like a traditional game.  Play it like you would play Settlers of Cataan, Sorry, Roborally, or Decent.  Worrying about the game reality is in context really silly.  What do hit points represent?  Doesn't matter.  They are a game resource, and thats really all that matters.  Worrying about the larger universe in which the game is taking place is fundamentally pointless.  Does the game imply a universe where people are never injured for more than a few hours?  Sure, but in the context of the game, so what?  And that is as a design is just fine for a game.But for me part of the joy of role-playing is imagining the game world to be a real place with much of the complexity of the real world.  To really get into roleplaying I have to be able to walk in the shoes of the character I'm creating and see through there eyes a world that is in some fashion believable.  Now, you can do that without a system and indeed with any system, so its not like roleplaying is impossible with 4E.  But it does seem to me that 4E doesn't do alot to encourage that sort of play, and perhaps even deprecates it.  I can't see myself wanting to start up an actual campaign using the 4E rules.  I can't see myself wanting to play this system for years and years except as an occasional break from something else.  DMing more fun?  Maybe, depending on how you look at things.  It makes me more want to play than DM, maybe because it appeals so strongly to my gamist/tactician side.  I definately can see groups using a rotating DM for 4E, and playing the game in a semi-competitive way.Honestly, I think 4E would be most fun on a computer with a random dungeon generator of some sort.  Generate a random dungeon, let one player take the baddies, and then see how well you can do against the dungeon master.  I'd definately play that way.But design a campaign world with 4E?  It seems kinda ridiculous.  All the sudden the venerable gentlemen in my campaign world with 3 Str, 3 Dex, 3 Con, 18 Int, 18 Wis, and 18 Chr are all Cohen the Barbarian, intelligence is only really useful if you are a librarian, six hours rest cures all evils, every trained fighter is a supernatural force, and children can reasonably allowed to play with sharp objects because it takes overwhelming force to do more damage to someone than can be healed in 5 minutes.  Sure, I can ignore that by just saying that none of the rules apply to anyone who isn't a PC, but then welcome to the world of unlimited DM fiat.  And contrary to some claims, DM fiat is just a headache even for the DM.  It's alot less work having some rules to help you make decisions.</blockquote>

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