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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Mustrum_Ridcully" data-source="post: 4078101" data-attributes="member: 710">Remember, try to avoid comparing bad stuff in 4E to bad stuff that already existed in 3E (or any other RPG). It's quite possible that the OP or anyone else annoyed by this stuff didn't like it any better previously, and the fact that it against isn't changed in 4E isn't exactly an argument for it.That said, I think there is "bad stuff" you just can't avoid.For the "role-playing" part of the game, how much rules do you want? How much rules can a game have for the role-playing stuff until the actual interaction on a personal level is replaced with rolling dice and adding modifiers? You could come up with a very complex social combat system, where people could use powers like "Intimidating Glare" or "sudden topic change" or "create straw man"-powers, but I think most people would agree that this that is no longer role-playing, but only a game.The same could be made for any other kind of non-combat stuff, like general problem-solving. "I roll my Jump to Conclusions skill to beat the Level 12 Evidence challenge and figure out who killed our suspect before we got to him."Or even worse. "I roll a Happyness check to see if my character is happy now after he has defeated his arch nemesis. Defeating him grants me a +10 accomplishment bonus" *roll* "Damn, a natural 1. Failed again. Let's roll on the Life Goal table to see what my character wants to do next." The role-playing stuff cannot be replaced by mechanics. It is something "between" the rules. A fighter focusing on battle axes can be described by game-mechanics. But the reason why he likes battle axes, and the screams he yells while hacking goblin hordes together are the role-playing part. A character good at social skills might seem like a good role-playing character, but he's only if the player actually uses the skills in character. "Frank could try to appease to the Black Guard so he let's him through. A diplomacy check should be enough. But he hates people aligning themselves with evil, no way he tried that. I'll try to bluff him instead." There are aspects of role-playing that are defined in the rules. Your stats and the skills you choose say something about your character. What he is good at it, what he's bad at. But how to really role-play this stuff is not part of the rules. What you want to role-play determines your decision on how to create your character (25 point buy), or the way your character was created (roll 3d6 in order) informs how you role-play him, but the actual role-playing is not implemented in the rules.But there is still another matter. How much time do you devote to the role-playing part, how much do you devote to the game?Games with little rules usually mean you devote a lot of your time to things outside the rules. That might lead to people role-playing more. But don't count on that. Games with a lot of rules invite people to use them. So you might get less role-playing. But don't count on that.In the end, people actually do the stuff that is the most fun to them. Some people enjoy he game part more then the role-playing part. Some people enjoy he role-playing part more the the game part.D&D 4 can't stop a "role-player" from role-playing. His group can, though. If enough people love to concentrate on the rules, and interject little role-playing in between, the role-player will feel hindered. But then, the group can also make the "gamer" stop playing the game. If most people love to play out the interactions of the characters with each other and the NPCs, rarely using rules to solve anything, well, the gamer will feel hindered.</blockquote>

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