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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 4086688" data-attributes="member: 4937">Sure, because that's part of thier formal education as fighters and rogues.  Fighters excercise thier muscles, rogues learn to get into tight places.  Doing those things are directly impacted by thier respective class skills, and conversely directly impact thier improvement in class skills.  Learning to climb though has nothing to do with learning to cast magic, unless you are actually casting magic.  Learning to recognize a spell completion has nothing to do with swinging a sword, learning to use your body, or climbing a wall. If your wizard wants to take time out of his discipline, his arcane regime, and learning his core class areas, then it's very simple - he can take a level of rogue and learn lots about climbing and other roguish things.  Or he can learn a little bit about climbing on the side, to the expense of say his knowledge of the outer planes, alchemy, or other learning. Why would I want to do that?  That would be almost as bad as making 'cast a spell' an interesting challenge for the whole group.  Instead, I'll probably present several alternative paths to victory (and likely the players will discover a few I didn't think of), and I'll allow the players to use whatever skills they do have to get from 'point a' to 'point b'.  If they decide that involves getting up a wall, then I'll leave it to thier ingenuity how they will do so.  If they are smart, that probably involves sending the best free climber up first - then having him throw a rope back down for the ones less skilled at it.  Afterall, that's the way it is done in real life even by groups of people who all have some climbing skill.  Everyone in the party has a way to deal with walls, it just might not be through the climb skill.  And if they don't have a way to deal with walls, then they'll rely strongly on thier teammates who in turn probably rely strongly on them in other areas.Climb checks are often undertaken voluntarily.  The DC of the wall is what is appropriate to the wall, not what is appropriate to the player's skill.There is nothing wrong with continuing to challenge the party with basic tasks.  If the expert in the party now finds basic tasks to be cakewalks, then that's fine too.  Let him enjoy his reward for being skilled.  Presenting him with nothing but icy smooth walls with no handholds just because he could in theory climb such a surface is DM metagaming.  Presenting him with an occassional obstacle that he and he alone can overcome is not wrong either.  That's what teamwork is about.   What you don't want is, "Gee, I can't open this lock even though I'm the party expert.  Why don't we have the fighter give it a go, he's got only slightly less chance of doing it than I do."  That is, unless by, 'Give it a go.', you mean, open the door with a battleaxe.What I think is that if you scale all skills by character level, what you end up with is a world where no one really gets any better at anything.  You might as well not advance skills at all, because you live in a world where every time you do advance your skills the world gets tougher by about the same amount.  The flavor is changing, but the actual way you interact with the world isn't.  As a player, that bores me to tears, and as a DM that feels cheap.You talk about how the class system out to require improvement in every skill as if that was somehow logical.  No point buy system has a similar requirement.  To the extent that you have classes in a point buy system, you have something like templates and they aren't nor do they become skilled in everything.  Rather, you either focus on being good at doing what you do, or you sacrifice some amount of skill at what you do to pick up skills outside that of your template.  That is to say there are tradeoffs.  You don't get something for nothing.  D&D handles that by multiclassing - allowing you to pick from several templates.  Again, there are tradeoffs - you don't get something for nothing.  Could the multiclassing rules be improved?  Undoubtably, but the game is not improved by making everyone good at everything.  Much of the point of having a class based system is that everyone won't be good at everything.</blockquote>

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