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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Hawken" data-source="post: 4951197" data-attributes="member: 23619">The problem with this is what I've already stated: That in this case, if you allow class levels before finishing off racial "levels" then its no longer a Minotaur. It looks like a Minotaur, walks like one and smells like one, but without all of its racial abilities in place, its NOT a Minotaur. And especially in the case of a Minotaur, its most important traits are all too powerful for a 1st level, 0HD, LA 0 race. Even just its racial adjustments alone are too much. No LA 0 race I can think of has a +4 or a -4 to anything, much less a +8 to something as devastating at 1st level as Str. As opposed to starting out as a "fairly average" human or dwarf who doesn't have all of the extra stuff that comes along with being a Minotaur? Your "fairly average" argument doesn't hold up because your line or reasoning would indicate that all the PHB races are "fairly average" since they're able to start taking classes with all their racial abilities intact. That's all I'm suggesting with my example for a Minotaur--make sure all racial abilities are intact before taking class levels. That doesn't make them anymore fairly average than an elf, halfling or gnome. No, it allows you to make Minotaurs that are not Minotaurs. It encourages min/maxing because it does nothing to stop players from picking and choosing what they see is the best assets that race has to offer and discarding the rest. It would be no different than players asking to skip the extra skills or feats for a human and starting 1 level higher than everyone else. Yeah, you could do it if you didn't want a "fairly average" human, but then you're discarding what makes humans human in favor of faster class advancement. Allowing the discarding of racial abilities just for earlier access to class advancement is missing the point.That's not really accurate. Racial abilities are not the same in terms of power/benefit. Case in point; Minotaur's +8 Str and Powerful Charge are more powerful than its immunity to Maze or its bonuses to Listen, Search and Spot. The more monstrous your race is, the more obvious this becomes. There should definitely be some progression to work toward. A full +8 to Str is too powerful early on, but around 5th or 6th level, it can fit in fine compared to Rogue's dealing 3d6 sneak attack and wizards launching fireballs.</blockquote>

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