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My viewpoint of the alignments
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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 6717698" data-attributes="member: 4937"><p>I think by and large you are working toward a functional definition and you've realized most of the traps you can run into if you misunderstand what alignment is about. </p><p></p><p>First, alignment is not personality. At all. Probably the biggest misunderstanding you'll run into is that alignment is personality. Thus the idea that all LG people look like Galahad, and all CG people look like Robin Hood, that lawful people are 'neat freaks' and chaotic people 'messy' and so forth. If anything, alignment is that conviction you have that in the crux, drives you to act against your natural personality. Alignment is what makes you forgo eating, even if you really enjoy eating, or makes you turn down that proposition from the sexy girl even though you've always had a crush on her, and so forth. Alignment is how you behave or at least believe you ought to behave, when the chips are on the table. In this sense, people's real alignment can be surprising - even to themselves.</p><p></p><p>Secondly, you are right - a chaotic evil person is not just evil for evil's sake. A neutral evil person is evil for evil's sake, and to them 'evil is their good'. A chaotic evil person is evil for their own sake. CE is the belief that the only way to get ahead is on the backs of others. It's the belief that the world is a zero sum game, and they only way to have something yourself is to take it from others. It's the belief that because the world is unjust, that The Just just get screwed. As to the Joker's alignment, it depends on which Joker you are talking about. The Silver Age 'Clown Prince of Crime' was very much Chaotic Evil. Remember, personality is not alignment so all the wild antics don't prove anything regarding his alignment. The silver age Joker was an eccentric thief, but very much motivated by a desire for power and wealth. The old Joker laughed because he believed he was better than everyone else. The modern Joker by contrast is usually presented as Neutral Evil - he just wants to watch the world burn and he's relatively or completely unconcerned about his own interests, even arranging plots where he's willing to die if it would prove the world is inherently evil. The modern Joker laughs because he believes the fact that he is funny proves everyone is deep down, as evil as he is.</p><p></p><p>Thirdly, you correctly identify chaotic neutral as not the alignment that lets you do anything you want, but you fail to identify what it does believe in - particularly with respect to good/evil. Keep in mind that with respect to good/evil, CN is on the same moral plane as LN or N. Some specific examples may clarify. CG believes that you should treat everyone better than they deserve - in other words, in a quality of mercy. CN believes that everyone should get what they deserve. CG good believes that they are compelled to do the good to others that they would want to have done to them. CN believes that they should refrain from doing harm to others that they wouldn't have done to them. In other words, neutrality on the good/evil axis tends to be passive with respect to good and evil. CG would say that if you see a stranger treated cruelly, you should try to stop it. CN would say it's not any of your business, and only that they themselves wouldn't act that way. CG would say that you should be generous. CN would say that is pointless and even harmful, and you should only try to be fair. CG would say that you should be forgiving. CN would say that would only encourage more harm, and that you should only avoid being vindictive. CG would say you shouldn't engage in self-harm. CN would say its my body and I can do with it what I please, and likewise it's their body and even if it wasn't my choice to weigh 500lb it's not my place to condemn or judge that. In short, CN and LN are broadly in agreement regarding the moral plane of human behavior, but vastly disagree over where authority is vested, what an ideal society looks like, and who gets to judge and whether you can judge. CN thinks good's benevolence and evil's malevolence are equally offenses against dignity, freedom, and excuses for harm tyrannical behavior (moral busybodies one hand, sadist bullies on the other) - though it would consider CG and CE equally to be just 'barely wrong' so long as they respected a chaotic idea to a large extent.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 6717698, member: 4937"] I think by and large you are working toward a functional definition and you've realized most of the traps you can run into if you misunderstand what alignment is about. First, alignment is not personality. At all. Probably the biggest misunderstanding you'll run into is that alignment is personality. Thus the idea that all LG people look like Galahad, and all CG people look like Robin Hood, that lawful people are 'neat freaks' and chaotic people 'messy' and so forth. If anything, alignment is that conviction you have that in the crux, drives you to act against your natural personality. Alignment is what makes you forgo eating, even if you really enjoy eating, or makes you turn down that proposition from the sexy girl even though you've always had a crush on her, and so forth. Alignment is how you behave or at least believe you ought to behave, when the chips are on the table. In this sense, people's real alignment can be surprising - even to themselves. Secondly, you are right - a chaotic evil person is not just evil for evil's sake. A neutral evil person is evil for evil's sake, and to them 'evil is their good'. A chaotic evil person is evil for their own sake. CE is the belief that the only way to get ahead is on the backs of others. It's the belief that the world is a zero sum game, and they only way to have something yourself is to take it from others. It's the belief that because the world is unjust, that The Just just get screwed. As to the Joker's alignment, it depends on which Joker you are talking about. The Silver Age 'Clown Prince of Crime' was very much Chaotic Evil. Remember, personality is not alignment so all the wild antics don't prove anything regarding his alignment. The silver age Joker was an eccentric thief, but very much motivated by a desire for power and wealth. The old Joker laughed because he believed he was better than everyone else. The modern Joker by contrast is usually presented as Neutral Evil - he just wants to watch the world burn and he's relatively or completely unconcerned about his own interests, even arranging plots where he's willing to die if it would prove the world is inherently evil. The modern Joker laughs because he believes the fact that he is funny proves everyone is deep down, as evil as he is. Thirdly, you correctly identify chaotic neutral as not the alignment that lets you do anything you want, but you fail to identify what it does believe in - particularly with respect to good/evil. Keep in mind that with respect to good/evil, CN is on the same moral plane as LN or N. Some specific examples may clarify. CG believes that you should treat everyone better than they deserve - in other words, in a quality of mercy. CN believes that everyone should get what they deserve. CG good believes that they are compelled to do the good to others that they would want to have done to them. CN believes that they should refrain from doing harm to others that they wouldn't have done to them. In other words, neutrality on the good/evil axis tends to be passive with respect to good and evil. CG would say that if you see a stranger treated cruelly, you should try to stop it. CN would say it's not any of your business, and only that they themselves wouldn't act that way. CG would say that you should be generous. CN would say that is pointless and even harmful, and you should only try to be fair. CG would say that you should be forgiving. CN would say that would only encourage more harm, and that you should only avoid being vindictive. CG would say you shouldn't engage in self-harm. CN would say its my body and I can do with it what I please, and likewise it's their body and even if it wasn't my choice to weigh 500lb it's not my place to condemn or judge that. In short, CN and LN are broadly in agreement regarding the moral plane of human behavior, but vastly disagree over where authority is vested, what an ideal society looks like, and who gets to judge and whether you can judge. CN thinks good's benevolence and evil's malevolence are equally offenses against dignity, freedom, and excuses for harm tyrannical behavior (moral busybodies one hand, sadist bullies on the other) - though it would consider CG and CE equally to be just 'barely wrong' so long as they respected a chaotic idea to a large extent. [/QUOTE]
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