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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Elder-Basilisk" data-source="post: 2423106" data-attributes="member: 3146">I never said "just" to cast buffs. My point is simply that, after giving up three points of BAB and a lot of hit points, you won't be competitive with second rank fighters like rogues unless you use buffs (or debuffs like ray of enfeeblement and enervation on your enemies). Warmages have a few buffs but the lion's share of the best buffs are not on their list. (And neither are the best utility spells like see invisibility and false life).I think you're reading too much into my argument. Yes, fireball is a weak spell in most D&D games (ref 1/2 and d6 vs. monsters with a d8 or d10+con bonus in most cases isn't nearly as good as save vs. spells for d6/lvl vs. unmodified d8 was in 1e and 2e) and is weaker than normal for a mage with a lot of levels invested in noncasting classes (because he's just getting fireball when the bad guys fear empowered fireballs and can empower fireballs when his straight-classed cousin is empowering cones of cold). Worse yet, a fighter/mage typically has to spread his feat and equipment choices around so that he doesn't have Spell Focus and Spell Penetration and has magic weapons and armor instead of the best headband he can afford. So, a straight-class mage's DCs will be higher as well. So, saving throw based area effect blasting and save or die spells are the point of least synergy between a fighter and a mage.That's not to say that all offensive spells are useless.Whirling blade, for instance is a great spell since it lets you use melee feats like Arcane Strike and Power Attack as well as melee effects like wraithstrike. While it's a weak spell for most straignt class mages and warmages, it is amazing for a fighter/wizard or fighter/sorcerer (and would be amazing for a fighter/warmage if he had access to wraithstrike).Similarly, scorching ray is a good spell for a fighter/mage--especially at higher levels because it is low enough level to metamagic (quicken and empower are very good with it), benefits from a higher BAB (as well as a lot of buffs that a melee focused fighter mage might use such as greater blink and heroism). Best yet, it has no save which means that the (typically) lower int and lack of Spell Focus are irrelevant. Scorching ray is useful as an alternative to bows that enables a fighter/mage to keep a weapon in hand ready to full attack but still make a very effective ranged attack. (A normal fighter needs Quickdraw to do this and either suffers the limited range of a javalin or tends to drop weapons all over the field as he switches styles).If you pick up a spell storing weapon, spells like shocking grasp (empowered) and touch of idiocy are useful.Similarly, hybrid battlefield control/blasting spells like Freezing Fog and Acid Fog are very useful to a fighter/mage. No save=good. No SR either=better.The Spellsword's Channel spell ability is also very useful in this regard as well since it lets you attack and use a spell in the same round. (Ordinarily, you have to choose one or the other each round).If you really want to be a fighter/warmage, I would suggest Ftr 1/Warmage 6/Spellsword 1/Eldritch Knight the rest of the way. That way, you get 4th level spells and you'll be a lot more effective in spellcasting department without sacrificing any further BAB (you sacrifice two feats (eventually--one at lvl 10 since you get the spellsword bonus feat) including weapon specialization, and a few hit points). If you really want to be more martially inclined, I'd recommend Ftr 2/Warmage 4/Spellsword 4 which will give you the channel spell ability a better BAB, and the same hit points as your Ftr 4/Warmage 6.If, on the other hand, you want to be a badass fighter who can toss a scorching ray (or a fireball though it won't be nearly as good) when the situation calls for it, I'd recommend Ftr 1/Wizard 6/Spellsword 1/Eldritch Knight 2. The same caster level 8, +7 BAB, and the ability to wear a mithral chain shirt without arcane spell failure. That gives you more of the key buffs (shield, false life, wraithstrike, greater magic weapon, blink, etc) and you're still able to cast fireball, scorching ray, etc. if you really want to. A more combat focussed build would be Ftr 2/Wiz 4/Spellsword 4.If you want to stay charisma centered, sorcerer works too and gives you new ways to use what you've got (what, we just fought a battle? I cast false life again) but you sacrifice the ability of a wizard to pull a scorching ray out one day, a whirling blade out the next, and on the third to go to fog cloud.</blockquote>

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