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Message: <blockquote data-quote="GameJunkie" data-source="post: 4807375" data-attributes="member: 83925">I got you.  I said I liked it but for my games I will bump it to 16 or maybe >19 given level 26 Wizards better be able lock down things if they KNOW what they fighting EXACTLY (like that will happen without some work and that said monster couldn't use a ritual or three themselves to change the goalposts) if I use it.  Fits my sense of symetry better.  Haven't had the chance to get those items as a player and haven't given them out as a DM yet.  I have been lucky because the people I run game for don't look to optimize.I suppose you could have the "help" come in and geek the mage if need be but yeah -5/-6 works for me.  Even though none of this is relevent until you well into Epic level.</blockquote>