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Message: <blockquote data-quote="The Sigil" data-source="post: 817934" data-attributes="member: 2013">In support of "overpowered..."Just for fun, I did an empirical comparison of raw spell power based on the best metric I can think of... anticipated damage dice from spells.IIRC from the DMG and the Conversion Guide, that the following can be used to gauge the maximum damage a spell does:WIZARD SPELLS0th-level spell - 1 die of damage to an individual1st-level spell - 5 dice of damage to a group2nd-level spell - 10 dice of damage to an individual3rd-level spell - 10 dice of damage to a group4th-level spell - 15 dice of damage to an individual5th-level spell - 15 dice of damage to a group6th-level spell - 20 dice of damage to an individual7th-level spell - 20 dice of damage to a group8th-level spell - 25 dice of damage to an individual9th-level spell - 25 dice of damage to a groupCLERIC SPELLS:0th-level spell - no damageOtherwise treat as Wizard spell one level lower.That seems to make it pretty easy and straightforward to convert "spell slots" into "expected damage" split into two categories - individuals and groups.For the moment, let's drop bonus spells due to high stats.At 16th level, a cleric has a spell slot array that looks like this:6/6/6/6/5/4/4/3 (lumping domains spells in with regular spells).  We'll ignore the fact that some domain spells are, in essence, wizard spells (and hence have a higher damage cap) for sake of simplicity.At 16th level, a wizard has the following array: 4/4/4/4/4/4/3/3/2The Wiz3/Clr3/Mystic Theurgist10 has a clerical array of:6/6/6/5/5/4/3/2 and a wizard array of 4/4/4/4/4/3/2/1Now, let's convert this to potential damage dice (and I did cap the straight wizard and clerics' at 16 for levels with a max of 20 or 25 and at 13 for the Theurgist).  Now, we can compare:Cleric 16Total potential damage dice to individuals: 205 diceTotal potential damage dice to groups: 188 diceWizard 16Total potential damage dice to individuals: 184 diceTotal potential damage dice to groups: 168 diceClr 3/Wiz 3/Mystic Theurgist 10Total potential damage dice to individuals: 256 diceTotal potential damage dice to groups: 231 diceWhat's the first thing we notice?  Well, first off, we notice that the cleric, with his larger number of spells, is a better "blaster" than a wizard (a surprising find to some, perhaps).We also notice that the Mystic Theurgist has more raw firepower than EITHER the Cleric or the Wizard... yes, it takes him longer to "empty his holster" but he's got significantly more total punch in his holster.Mystic Theurgist has125% the blast power of a Cleric vs individuals140% the blast power of a Wizard vs individuals123% the blast power of a Cleric vs groups138% the blast power of a Wizard vs groupsConclusion:Because the Mystic Theurgist has 20-40% more "blast power" than a straight Cleric or Wizard of the equivalent level, the Mystic Theurgist is overpowered.DON'T think of it as, "max spell level is one lower than a straight class" - think of it as raw blast power... I think that's a better measuring stick anyway. YMMV.What is the cost of this blast power?  In the case of the Wizard, the cost is 3 Bonus Feats.  Think a Wizard would give up his 3 Feats for 40% more spells? I do (that would give the wizard 5 or 6 spell slots per level instead of 4).  Think a Cleric would give up boosting his Turning Ability for more 20% spells? (giving him 7 or 8 spells per level) especially considering that with the HD and Turn Resistance of most CR 16 undead, a Clr 16 has no prayer of affecting them anyway?  Yeah, me too.I won't call the Mystic Theurgist totally, outrageously broken - but it *IS* overpowered, make no mistake about it... sophistry about "lower highest level spell slot" notwithstanding.I think I would "tweak" it to have a 3/4 spell progression chart... kind of like BAB.1st level -> No spell progression2nd-4th levels -> +1 level in both arcane and divine classes5th level -> No spell progression6th-8th levels -> +1 level in both classes9th level -> No spell progression10th level -> +1 level in both classes.This brings the "total blast power" back in line with that of a single-classed character... though it is probably less attractive now since the 14th-level character looks like a 9th/9th caster and thus the disparity in spell slots winds up being two levels (the 9th/9th is only throwing 5th level spells, while the 14th is throwing 7th-level spells).--The Sigil</blockquote>

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