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Message: <blockquote data-quote="reapersaurus" data-source="post: 1084712" data-attributes="member: 1194">OK.Enough back-patting going on in here - let's mix it up.I am surprised that such a one-sided view is being aped here.Let me compare a 12th level PC (right around the middle of the PrC chain) to a straight wizard, and let's see what actually is GAINED. Most people I've heard fixate on what the MT GIVES UP.Wrong approach.Clr3/Wiz3/MT6 vs Wiz12<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">3d8+9d4 VS 12d4 (avg 39 vs 31, if max first HD and avg after)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">+6/+1 BAB VS +6/+1 BAB</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">+6/+4/+11 saves VS +4/+4/+8 saves</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">familiar at level 3, no bonus feats VS familiar at 12th, 2 bonus feats</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Casts as a 9th level cleric AND wizard VS 12th level Wiz caster</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"> cleric spells of 6/4+1/4+1/3+1/2+1/1+1 AND Wiz spells of 4/4/4/3/2/1 VS Wiz spells of 4/4/4/4/3/3/2</li> </ul>Conclusions: The MT has 8 more HP (equivalent to 2 sucky feats of Toughness)MT has +2 to FORT and +3 to WILL saves (~2 more feats)MT has TWO domain granted powers, and spell lists (~ 2 feats)Wiz has a slightly better familiar (familiars get >80% of their effectiveness by level 3, IMO) and 2 metamagic feats.Wiz has 3 better SR chance - ~15% better chance to penetrate SR (of course, most creatures don't have SR, and there are many ways around it) (~1 more feat)MT can turn undead as a 3rd level cleric, and qualifies for Divine Feats.MT gets all armor proficiency and shield proficiency, but I'll ignore that.This leaves the MT with effectively 3 or 4 more 'feats' (at least) than the WizSpells:Wiz has 1 more 3rd level spell, 1 more 4th, 2 more 5th, and 2 more 6th.The MT has 6 more 0th, 5 more 1st, 5 more 2nd, 4 more 3rd, 3 more 4th, and 2 more 5th level cleric spells.The MT has 18 more spell levels (47 - 29), and he knows (quick calculation) 100 more spells than the Wiz.This is IMO more versatile, and effective in game.Really, now - are you guys seriously forwarding the comparison that it is MORE likely that the critical spell in the encounter will be 6th level Wiz spell that the Wiz12 can cast, and NOT one of the multitude of cleric spells that the MT can cast? (Or that the 15% better SR chance will be the critical aspect of the encounter)If you are, than you are predicating your statement on the inclusion of a very rare case: that a 6th level wizard spell is required to win the encounter. Oh, and that the Wiz 12 prepared the spell that day. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue    :p"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":p" /> Compare that case with the common case where a 5th level or below cleric spell could be needed. Not to mention the hundreds of HP's a day the MT can heal.So let's not be too hasty in public-opinioning the MT to being "underpowered". <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /></blockquote>

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