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Mythological Figures: Francis Drake
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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 8120347" data-attributes="member: 87792"><p>Please stick to the facts. When he had operational command he repeatedly liberated slaves and attacked slavers (mostly for being on the other side), and at least some of his crew were former slaves more than happy to fight in Drake's war against the European country that actually legally owned slaves at the time (Spain). And he wasn't a pirate - he was a privateer. If you want to say that ever commerce raider and every U-boat captain was evil, then that's a defensible position. </p><p></p><p>As for his hand in the slaughter of the Irish, he contributed strongly to beating them fairly under the rules of war at the time - after which someone he was working for ordered a massacre to be carried out by other troops than his.</p><p></p><p>And no he didn't have a "close friend" (earlier you said "greatest rival"; initially friendly investor would be a better description) "literally murdered" let alone on trumped up accusations of witchcraft, although he did have him imprisoned for witchcraft. Doughty was <em>executed </em>for <em>incitement to mutiny - </em>which he does seem to have been guilty of (albeit with some justification). It wasn't a kangaroo court; Doughty wasn't found guilty of the charge of treachery. He also wasn't found guilty of witchcraft because he wasn't even charged with it. There's a good case that the evidence against Doughty wasn't solid, but that's another story.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Except in the analogy Drake was closer to a member of the Wehrmacht who fought alongside the Waffen SS. Except that's not the right analogy because one of the things about the Waffen SS was they were on the worse side. Meanwhile the people Drake was fighting against were the Spanish who, in your words "outright lead the slaughter and conquest of indigenous peoples for nothing more than gold in addition to the slavery?" Drake's main source of wealth was stealing their ill-gotten gains.</p><p></p><p>At this point we aren't using the Waffen SS analogy - we're using the Batman analogy. Someone who behaved like Batman does in the real world would be evil. Guilty of numerous counts of assault, intimidation, breaking and entering, etc. But the Gotham Police aren't doing the job and neither would a nice person.</p><p></p><p>And as mentioned he was personally guilty of leading at least one war crime himself. A case can definitely be made for evil. A case can also be made to consider him an anti-hero up against far worse and with a desire for vengeance. The cartoon evil you make him out to be doesn't fit the facts. Evil does, so does neutral.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 8120347, member: 87792"] Please stick to the facts. When he had operational command he repeatedly liberated slaves and attacked slavers (mostly for being on the other side), and at least some of his crew were former slaves more than happy to fight in Drake's war against the European country that actually legally owned slaves at the time (Spain). And he wasn't a pirate - he was a privateer. If you want to say that ever commerce raider and every U-boat captain was evil, then that's a defensible position. As for his hand in the slaughter of the Irish, he contributed strongly to beating them fairly under the rules of war at the time - after which someone he was working for ordered a massacre to be carried out by other troops than his. And no he didn't have a "close friend" (earlier you said "greatest rival"; initially friendly investor would be a better description) "literally murdered" let alone on trumped up accusations of witchcraft, although he did have him imprisoned for witchcraft. Doughty was [I]executed [/I]for [I]incitement to mutiny - [/I]which he does seem to have been guilty of (albeit with some justification). It wasn't a kangaroo court; Doughty wasn't found guilty of the charge of treachery. He also wasn't found guilty of witchcraft because he wasn't even charged with it. There's a good case that the evidence against Doughty wasn't solid, but that's another story. Except in the analogy Drake was closer to a member of the Wehrmacht who fought alongside the Waffen SS. Except that's not the right analogy because one of the things about the Waffen SS was they were on the worse side. Meanwhile the people Drake was fighting against were the Spanish who, in your words "outright lead the slaughter and conquest of indigenous peoples for nothing more than gold in addition to the slavery?" Drake's main source of wealth was stealing their ill-gotten gains. At this point we aren't using the Waffen SS analogy - we're using the Batman analogy. Someone who behaved like Batman does in the real world would be evil. Guilty of numerous counts of assault, intimidation, breaking and entering, etc. But the Gotham Police aren't doing the job and neither would a nice person. And as mentioned he was personally guilty of leading at least one war crime himself. A case can definitely be made for evil. A case can also be made to consider him an anti-hero up against far worse and with a desire for vengeance. The cartoon evil you make him out to be doesn't fit the facts. Evil does, so does neutral. [/QUOTE]
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