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Mythological Figures: Odysseus/Ulysses (5E)
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<blockquote data-quote="Kobold Stew" data-source="post: 7766571" data-attributes="member: 23484"><p>This is really good -- we actually have a lot of information about him, from the same pair of sources (the Homeric poems), and so I think this is a reasonable challenge. I'm going to suggest some slightly different solutions, but in general I think this is the best of this series so far.</p><p></p><p>Drawing only in the Iliad and Odyssey, there are many specific abilities that it is worth trying to replicate:</p><p></p><p>Iliad 23 - Od is the fastest at Troy (~Mobility feat and at least Rogue 2?)</p><p>Iliad 23 - Od is the best wrestler at Troy (Grapple build: perhaps 18 Str, Expertise in Athletics from Rogue 2, Second attack from Fighter 5, Reliable talent with Rogue 11; possible the Lucky feat (Athena's influence)).</p><p>Od 8 - Od is able to throw heavier discus further than others (5e doesn't mess with ranges much, but I suspect the Sharpshooter feat (first two points, which work with thrown weapons) is adequate.)</p><p></p><p>Let's start with those three.</p><p></p><p>I agree with your choice of a Fighter/Rogue split. My instinct is that Reliable Talent means that It should be 11 Rogue/9 Fighter (with one use of Indominable) or 12 Rogue/8 Fighter (with an extra ASI), or even 13 Rogue/7 Fighter (if you accept my suggested Rogue specialization, below). </p><p></p><p>XGTE gives subclasses that help:</p><p></p><p>Rogue (skirmisher) gives </p><p>* expertise equivalent in Nature and Survival (cf. his raft building and trading water in Od 5)</p><p>* superior mobility (cf. footrace in Iliad 23)</p><p>* a level 13, Ambush master, giving advantage on initiative (cf. Iliad 10, and the story told by Helen in Od 4)</p><p></p><p>Fighter (samurai) gives </p><p>* more skill proficiencies</p><p>* fighting spirit (advantage on select attacks; cf. Od 21, which also seems to be a Sharpshooter +5/-10)</p><p>* elegant courtier gives wisdom bonus to Persuasion checks, and proficiency in Wisdom checks (and wisdom supports insight and survival, which both seem relevant). The strongest argument against this is that he significantly fails a wisdom check when Penelope brings up the bed in Od. 23. Whatever stats he ends up with, she is BETTER at deception (or her Deception is more successful than his insight); cf. also the trick with the shroud.So the question becomes when does he get his 7th level in fighter?</p><p></p><p>Odysseus is certainly proficient (and perhaps with Expertise) in Deception (the three Cretan stories in Od. 13, 14, 19) and Performance (Od 9-12, esp. 11 when the king interrupts and says "How like a bard you speak...".) I'd also say proficient in Persuasion (Il 2 -- possibly Charismatic Leader here) and (as above) Athletics (with Expertise). Other skills would include Stealth (Il 10), and proficiency in the lyre, vehicles (water), and disguise kit. He might not be proficient in Insight, though (as above, and cf. his stupid moves with the Cyclops in Od 9).</p><p></p><p>If there is a feature from a background that Odysseus seems to have, I'd suggest it's the "By Popular Demand" feature of the Entertainer.</p><p></p><p>Rogue 13/Fighter 7 still leaves six ASIs, and (personal opinion here) if Homer played D&D, Odysseus would be his character and he would have rolled all those 18s at home, honestly -- so they can all be used for feats (I've suggested Sharpshooter, Lucky, and Mobility).</p><p></p><p>Arguably, he doesn't show the benefits I've suggested of Fighter 7 until he is on the Island of the Phaeacians in Od. 6 (just weeks before he returns to Ithaca), but (if the above is reasonable) he is Rogue 13/Fighter 3 (at least) by Iliad 10 -- though he is the only one inside the Trojan Horse who makes the Insight check vs. Helen's Deception (told in Od 4).</p><p></p><p>Re: stringing the bow: Odyssey 21. 128-29 shows that Telemachus too has the ability to string the bow, but with difficulty (no one else can). It doesn't pay to try to understand the trick shot -- the text is not clear, and there are many scholarly interpretations, none of which is generally accepted).</p><p></p><p>Thanks a lot! I hope my comments show how provocative this one is.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Kobold Stew, post: 7766571, member: 23484"] This is really good -- we actually have a lot of information about him, from the same pair of sources (the Homeric poems), and so I think this is a reasonable challenge. I'm going to suggest some slightly different solutions, but in general I think this is the best of this series so far. Drawing only in the Iliad and Odyssey, there are many specific abilities that it is worth trying to replicate: Iliad 23 - Od is the fastest at Troy (~Mobility feat and at least Rogue 2?) Iliad 23 - Od is the best wrestler at Troy (Grapple build: perhaps 18 Str, Expertise in Athletics from Rogue 2, Second attack from Fighter 5, Reliable talent with Rogue 11; possible the Lucky feat (Athena's influence)). Od 8 - Od is able to throw heavier discus further than others (5e doesn't mess with ranges much, but I suspect the Sharpshooter feat (first two points, which work with thrown weapons) is adequate.) Let's start with those three. I agree with your choice of a Fighter/Rogue split. My instinct is that Reliable Talent means that It should be 11 Rogue/9 Fighter (with one use of Indominable) or 12 Rogue/8 Fighter (with an extra ASI), or even 13 Rogue/7 Fighter (if you accept my suggested Rogue specialization, below). XGTE gives subclasses that help: Rogue (skirmisher) gives * expertise equivalent in Nature and Survival (cf. his raft building and trading water in Od 5) * superior mobility (cf. footrace in Iliad 23) * a level 13, Ambush master, giving advantage on initiative (cf. Iliad 10, and the story told by Helen in Od 4) Fighter (samurai) gives * more skill proficiencies * fighting spirit (advantage on select attacks; cf. Od 21, which also seems to be a Sharpshooter +5/-10) * elegant courtier gives wisdom bonus to Persuasion checks, and proficiency in Wisdom checks (and wisdom supports insight and survival, which both seem relevant). The strongest argument against this is that he significantly fails a wisdom check when Penelope brings up the bed in Od. 23. Whatever stats he ends up with, she is BETTER at deception (or her Deception is more successful than his insight); cf. also the trick with the shroud.So the question becomes when does he get his 7th level in fighter? Odysseus is certainly proficient (and perhaps with Expertise) in Deception (the three Cretan stories in Od. 13, 14, 19) and Performance (Od 9-12, esp. 11 when the king interrupts and says "How like a bard you speak...".) I'd also say proficient in Persuasion (Il 2 -- possibly Charismatic Leader here) and (as above) Athletics (with Expertise). Other skills would include Stealth (Il 10), and proficiency in the lyre, vehicles (water), and disguise kit. He might not be proficient in Insight, though (as above, and cf. his stupid moves with the Cyclops in Od 9). If there is a feature from a background that Odysseus seems to have, I'd suggest it's the "By Popular Demand" feature of the Entertainer. Rogue 13/Fighter 7 still leaves six ASIs, and (personal opinion here) if Homer played D&D, Odysseus would be his character and he would have rolled all those 18s at home, honestly -- so they can all be used for feats (I've suggested Sharpshooter, Lucky, and Mobility). Arguably, he doesn't show the benefits I've suggested of Fighter 7 until he is on the Island of the Phaeacians in Od. 6 (just weeks before he returns to Ithaca), but (if the above is reasonable) he is Rogue 13/Fighter 3 (at least) by Iliad 10 -- though he is the only one inside the Trojan Horse who makes the Insight check vs. Helen's Deception (told in Od 4). Re: stringing the bow: Odyssey 21. 128-29 shows that Telemachus too has the ability to string the bow, but with difficulty (no one else can). It doesn't pay to try to understand the trick shot -- the text is not clear, and there are many scholarly interpretations, none of which is generally accepted). Thanks a lot! I hope my comments show how provocative this one is. [/QUOTE]
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