Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
White Dwarf Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Nest
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
EN Publishing
Twitter
BlueSky
Facebook
Instagram
EN World
BlueSky
YouTube
Facebook
Twitter
Twitch
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
D&D Older Editions
Mythusmage's D&D 4e Thoughts
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="delericho" data-source="post: 3161547" data-attributes="member: 22424"><p>I think you go too far.</p><p></p><p>I would keep the existing PHB/DMG/MM format as-is. I would also leave the basic race/class/skills/feats/gear structure as they are.</p><p></p><p>Some changes I would make, though:</p><p></p><p>1) Remove the half-elf, half-orc and gnomes races from the PHB. Include these in the MM so players can use them if they wish (as, in fact, they are now - no need to repeat that information). Also, the half-elf and half-orc write-ups need beefing up a bit. Neither stacks up next to the Dwarf, and comparisons with Warforged are laughable.</p><p></p><p>2) Remove Weapon Familiarity. The idea behind it is sound, but the effect is that every dwarven warrior-type uses the Waraxe or, perhaps, the Urgrosh, because these are simply the best weapons that are available. I prefer not having one or two clearly optimal choices.</p><p></p><p>3) Remove Favoured Classes.</p><p></p><p>4) Reduce the number of 'rules elements' associated with the elf and the dwarf. At the moment, they get a huge raft of benefits, a lot of which are seldom used and others of which occur only in special cases. If some of these can be removed to other parts of the system, I think that would be a good thing. In particular, I'm thinking the Stonecutting ability can largely be rolled into Search or Knowledge: Dungeoneering.</p><p></p><p>5) Classes should be rethought, with an eye towards deciding what should be a base class and what should be a prestige class. At a minimum, I feel that base classes should not have alignment restrictions, should not be culturally based (so, no Samurai or Knight), and it should be possible to envisage at least three different models for the class, and some sane way to see multiple members of any given race taking the class. So, for example, if one simply cannot see there ever being more than one extreme example of a Dwarf Druid, Druid should not be a base class (that was an example - I have no problem envisaging that combo, and have no problem with the Druid base class).</p><p></p><p>6) There should be twelve base classes in the PHB. Of the existing classes, the Paladin should become a PrC, but the others are probably fine. I'd probably add the Duskblade and Scout to complete the set.</p><p></p><p>7) Introduce d20 Modern-style talent trees to the classes. This especially applies to the Ranger, Barbarian and Rogue.</p><p></p><p>8) Use class-based Defense bonuses and Weapon Group proficiencies as core options.</p><p></p><p>(Note, between #7 and #8, the core supports lightly-armoured mobile Fighters a lot better. This may remove the need for a Swashbuckler class. If not, replace Scout with Swashbuckler, in #6 above.)</p><p></p><p>9) Redo the Sorcerer skill list entirely. Beef up that class a bit. Remove Specialist Wizards from the core. (see below)</p><p></p><p>10) Do something to fix multiclass spellcasters. I'm not sure what the 'correct' fix is, but this is one of my 'must fix' areas before I think a release of 4th edition can be justified.</p><p></p><p>11) Give characters 6 times the base skill points at 1st level. Leave the (level +3) cap as-is.</p><p></p><p>12) Remove class skills, and instead use the skill groups rules from Iron Heroes.</p><p></p><p>13) Consider giving each class a small set of group choices that they can choose from. Don't simply let them choose class skills freely (since this effectively just gives them all skills they want as class skills, whatever they are). However, a swashbuckler-package Fighter will want different groups from a Conan-package Fighter. Adding that flexibility to the core slightly increases complexity in the core, but can have a hugely simplifying effect in the expansions.</p><p></p><p>13) Remove Rope Use (roll into Sleight of Hand). Consider combining Spot and Listen into Awareness, and Hide and Move Silently into Stealth.</p><p></p><p>14) Consider giving every class at least 4 skill points per level.</p><p></p><p>15) Strongly consider dropping Vancian magic in favour of a mana-based system. Also, strongly consider dropping all "uses per day" powers, in favour of a model where a power is expended until the character takes some action to regain its use (q.v. Book of Nine Swords).</p><p></p><p>16) Remove the Epic level rules from the DMG. Use the space for more material on PrCs.</p><p></p><p>17) Reduce the number of named bonus types. Seven feels like a good number to me. And don't allow supplements to introduce lots of new types.</p><p></p><p>18) Consider dropping all magic items that give a static bonus, instead rolling these abilities into the character's innate capabilities. Alternately, allow such items, but move to a model where characters have a few more powerful items, rather than the current raft of minor ones.</p><p></p><p>19) Specifically regarding armour class: the current bonuses should be divided into those that absorb blows and those that avoid them. The former should apply to flat-footed AC but not Touch AC, and the latter the opposite. Then, the system should be set up such that you can get a really good AC one way with a poor AC the other, or a medium AC in both fields.</p><p></p><p>20) Fix Level Adjustments. This is the second 'must fix' areas that needs dealt with before 4th Edition is justified. My preferred fix at the moment is to do away with LA entirely, and instead tie racial abilities to monster hit dice. So, the basic drow will have 3 hit dice of Humanoid with all those racial abilities. Alternately, provide a stripped down version as the PC race, with the higher level abilities available by taking the racial Paragon class.</p><p></p><p>21) Include more high-CR foes in the MM that are not dragons or outsiders.</p><p></p><p>22) Either include more sample chromatic dragons, or change dragons from the current build-your-own format.</p><p></p><p>#21 and #22 are aimed at Dungeon magazine primarily, allowing high-level adventures to simply refer to the MM, without having to constantly reuse the same handful of monsters.</p><p></p><p>One more thing, this time about supplements:</p><p></p><p>Early in the 4e cycle, I would release a "Tome of Magic", which included amongst other things the Warmage, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Transmogriphier, Inspired Oracle, Cunning Illusionist, and so forth. One of the recommendations in this book would be that users remove the standard Sorcerer from the game. A similar book should do the same for the Cleric, with variants representing the Archivist, Favoured Soul, Priest Militant, and so forth.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="delericho, post: 3161547, member: 22424"] I think you go too far. I would keep the existing PHB/DMG/MM format as-is. I would also leave the basic race/class/skills/feats/gear structure as they are. Some changes I would make, though: 1) Remove the half-elf, half-orc and gnomes races from the PHB. Include these in the MM so players can use them if they wish (as, in fact, they are now - no need to repeat that information). Also, the half-elf and half-orc write-ups need beefing up a bit. Neither stacks up next to the Dwarf, and comparisons with Warforged are laughable. 2) Remove Weapon Familiarity. The idea behind it is sound, but the effect is that every dwarven warrior-type uses the Waraxe or, perhaps, the Urgrosh, because these are simply the best weapons that are available. I prefer not having one or two clearly optimal choices. 3) Remove Favoured Classes. 4) Reduce the number of 'rules elements' associated with the elf and the dwarf. At the moment, they get a huge raft of benefits, a lot of which are seldom used and others of which occur only in special cases. If some of these can be removed to other parts of the system, I think that would be a good thing. In particular, I'm thinking the Stonecutting ability can largely be rolled into Search or Knowledge: Dungeoneering. 5) Classes should be rethought, with an eye towards deciding what should be a base class and what should be a prestige class. At a minimum, I feel that base classes should not have alignment restrictions, should not be culturally based (so, no Samurai or Knight), and it should be possible to envisage at least three different models for the class, and some sane way to see multiple members of any given race taking the class. So, for example, if one simply cannot see there ever being more than one extreme example of a Dwarf Druid, Druid should not be a base class (that was an example - I have no problem envisaging that combo, and have no problem with the Druid base class). 6) There should be twelve base classes in the PHB. Of the existing classes, the Paladin should become a PrC, but the others are probably fine. I'd probably add the Duskblade and Scout to complete the set. 7) Introduce d20 Modern-style talent trees to the classes. This especially applies to the Ranger, Barbarian and Rogue. 8) Use class-based Defense bonuses and Weapon Group proficiencies as core options. (Note, between #7 and #8, the core supports lightly-armoured mobile Fighters a lot better. This may remove the need for a Swashbuckler class. If not, replace Scout with Swashbuckler, in #6 above.) 9) Redo the Sorcerer skill list entirely. Beef up that class a bit. Remove Specialist Wizards from the core. (see below) 10) Do something to fix multiclass spellcasters. I'm not sure what the 'correct' fix is, but this is one of my 'must fix' areas before I think a release of 4th edition can be justified. 11) Give characters 6 times the base skill points at 1st level. Leave the (level +3) cap as-is. 12) Remove class skills, and instead use the skill groups rules from Iron Heroes. 13) Consider giving each class a small set of group choices that they can choose from. Don't simply let them choose class skills freely (since this effectively just gives them all skills they want as class skills, whatever they are). However, a swashbuckler-package Fighter will want different groups from a Conan-package Fighter. Adding that flexibility to the core slightly increases complexity in the core, but can have a hugely simplifying effect in the expansions. 13) Remove Rope Use (roll into Sleight of Hand). Consider combining Spot and Listen into Awareness, and Hide and Move Silently into Stealth. 14) Consider giving every class at least 4 skill points per level. 15) Strongly consider dropping Vancian magic in favour of a mana-based system. Also, strongly consider dropping all "uses per day" powers, in favour of a model where a power is expended until the character takes some action to regain its use (q.v. Book of Nine Swords). 16) Remove the Epic level rules from the DMG. Use the space for more material on PrCs. 17) Reduce the number of named bonus types. Seven feels like a good number to me. And don't allow supplements to introduce lots of new types. 18) Consider dropping all magic items that give a static bonus, instead rolling these abilities into the character's innate capabilities. Alternately, allow such items, but move to a model where characters have a few more powerful items, rather than the current raft of minor ones. 19) Specifically regarding armour class: the current bonuses should be divided into those that absorb blows and those that avoid them. The former should apply to flat-footed AC but not Touch AC, and the latter the opposite. Then, the system should be set up such that you can get a really good AC one way with a poor AC the other, or a medium AC in both fields. 20) Fix Level Adjustments. This is the second 'must fix' areas that needs dealt with before 4th Edition is justified. My preferred fix at the moment is to do away with LA entirely, and instead tie racial abilities to monster hit dice. So, the basic drow will have 3 hit dice of Humanoid with all those racial abilities. Alternately, provide a stripped down version as the PC race, with the higher level abilities available by taking the racial Paragon class. 21) Include more high-CR foes in the MM that are not dragons or outsiders. 22) Either include more sample chromatic dragons, or change dragons from the current build-your-own format. #21 and #22 are aimed at Dungeon magazine primarily, allowing high-level adventures to simply refer to the MM, without having to constantly reuse the same handful of monsters. One more thing, this time about supplements: Early in the 4e cycle, I would release a "Tome of Magic", which included amongst other things the Warmage, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Transmogriphier, Inspired Oracle, Cunning Illusionist, and so forth. One of the recommendations in this book would be that users remove the standard Sorcerer from the game. A similar book should do the same for the Cleric, with variants representing the Archivist, Favoured Soul, Priest Militant, and so forth. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
D&D Older Editions
Mythusmage's D&D 4e Thoughts
Top