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<blockquote data-quote="Rystil Arden" data-source="post: 3916615" data-attributes="member: 29014">I would guess that he won't let you use the one where you turn the penalty into an AC penalty instead of an attack penalty because that changes PA fundamentally and defeats the point of showing that trading to-hit for damage can work.&nbsp; It should be rather trivial to prove him wrong, for anyone who cares to try, using any of the following:1) Standard Power Attack against monsters that almost die in one hit but not quite (the classic example of why relying on expected damage is not correct--anything using wasted excess damage works here; for instance, doing 36 damage to a monster with 40 hp 95% of the time is much worse than doing 40 damage to a monster with 40 hp 85% of the time, even though the expected damage is lower (34.2 for no power attack and 34 for power attack 2) because the expected damage per round over two rounds, ignoring extra wasted damage, is actually ~19.95 for no power attack and 34 for power attack)2) Touch attacks--Deep Impact works here, but more-broken things like Wraithstrike make it worse.3) Large damage multipliers on a single blow--Spirited Charge with a Lance is a classic core example, but Diamond Nightmare Blade from Bo9S is more egregious.&nbsp; This can also include increased Power Attack multipliers like Frenzied Berserker and Leap Attack.&nbsp; Breaks faster if combined with #2 (so if you have a Bo9S Diamond Mind character with Deep Impact, Psionic Meditation, and Diamond Nightmare Blade, you can regain focus as a move action and then attack as a standard, expending focus, for a touch attack fully power attacked for x4 damage).</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Rystil Arden, post: 3916615, member: 29014"] I would guess that he won't let you use the one where you turn the penalty into an AC penalty instead of an attack penalty because that changes PA fundamentally and defeats the point of showing that trading to-hit for damage can work. It should be rather trivial to prove him wrong, for anyone who cares to try, using any of the following: 1) Standard Power Attack against monsters that almost die in one hit but not quite (the classic example of why relying on expected damage is not correct--anything using wasted excess damage works here; for instance, doing 36 damage to a monster with 40 hp 95% of the time is much worse than doing 40 damage to a monster with 40 hp 85% of the time, even though the expected damage is lower (34.2 for no power attack and 34 for power attack 2) because the expected damage per round over two rounds, ignoring extra wasted damage, is actually ~19.95 for no power attack and 34 for power attack) 2) Touch attacks--Deep Impact works here, but more-broken things like Wraithstrike make it worse. 3) Large damage multipliers on a single blow--Spirited Charge with a Lance is a classic core example, but Diamond Nightmare Blade from Bo9S is more egregious. This can also include increased Power Attack multipliers like Frenzied Berserker and Leap Attack. Breaks faster if combined with #2 (so if you have a Bo9S Diamond Mind character with Deep Impact, Psionic Meditation, and Diamond Nightmare Blade, you can regain focus as a move action and then attack as a standard, expending focus, for a touch attack fully power attacked for x4 damage). [/QUOTE]

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