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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Hammerhead" data-source="post: 251323" data-attributes="member: 73">Magic items work very differently for spell casters and non spellcasters.  A spell caster's magical toys only boost his existing abilities, in most cases.  A wizard with bracers of armor has only a marginal advantage against the guy casting mage armor.  A wand of fireballs only adds some endurance to a caster, his main attack is unchanged - it's still fireball.  The exceptions come in when a caster gets an item based off a different spell list, such as a cleric with boots of speed.  He can't haste himself, so the item actually is a new ability.For a non magical type, such as a fighter, most items add new distinct abilities.  A magic weapon gives him the ability to strike magical creatures with DR.  His celestial armor lets him fly.  He completely lacks these abilities without magic items.  Of course, magic weapons and armor also boost his abilities in taking and dishing out damage.A magically able character, while perhaps lacking in raw power, will often be able leverage his magical advantage to win.  For example, your 9th versus 15th sluggathon shows a straight up fight.  However, a magical character could fly via spell or item and rain down death.  Spells like stoneskin or prot arrows and items like Invulnerability armor or vestments of faith take the worst off non magic attacks.  Some spells such as fly or improved invis are very good for taking advantage.  Even a well equiped fighter had better have see invisibility goggles and good movement/ranged attacks if he wants to beat a spellcaster.In my opinion, the ability to deal with flying and or invisible enemies is almost essential at higher levels.  True story: 7 characters that all were flying and improved invis (among other things) expecting a mass haste attacked 2 flying, improved invis enemies, at least one of whom had a haste up.  Average level in the group was 10, IIRC.Groups are much more complicated.  The effectiveness of the group will probably depend mostly on the teamwork used.  A group with little magic and selfish spellcasters won't be very effective, while a group whose casters toss mass haste, GMWs, Magic Vestments could probably operate at a fairly high level of effectiveness, although they would run out of good spells faster.  Because the problems with non magic classes in a low magic environment, you'd probably also see a very different optimal party.  For example, replacing the fighter with another cleric could work well, as the cleric effectively has +5 weapons and armor, and can use persistent or quickened spells to expand his abilities.  Also, he'd be more resistent to most spells.  A 15th level fighter's will save is very poor without a powerful cloak of resistance.</blockquote>

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