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Message: <blockquote data-quote="MJS" data-source="post: 6152472" data-attributes="member: 6747144">well, as a Taoist sort of person, no one driving and everyone driving is the same point. We actually dont view that differently then. What you are describing is the same magic.as to my terrible elitism, well, <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />. First off, you are arguing against what I didn't say, so, whatevs...."good players/DMs don't have problems" is not a statement I made.     What I am saying there is, there is such a thing as players/DMs of greater and lesser skill. Acknowledging that isn't elitism. Players of lesser skill are going to be what? Less imaginative, less interesting, less fun to play with. All of that goes along with our poor old fighter who has nothing to do but swing a sword and flex at girls.      A more skilled player will have that fighter doing all sorts of things, regardless of what is on the character sheet.       I acknowledge that spells and abilities give an edge up when I say that the fighter may be the most difficult class to play in a fun and interesting way.    As to your 2 and 2a, you've set your strawman alight.     I have no problem giving fighters skills. If 3E really only gives 7 to the class, all I can say is....add skills.... If you're using skills, they need to be infinite. But they also need to make sense. I think we need to stop trying to balance fighter to mage, and balance fighter to fighter. To itself. There are thousands of skill possibilities, without granting spell powers to address some perceived lack of limelight that, yes, I believe would be less if the player thought outside of the box a bit more. I am far from the best at it.      And, yes, I am saying that less skilled DMs are more likely to let the spellcasters dominate too much. The recommendations on reigning in wizards goes back to Gygax. Not the full moon scribing thing, that just sounded cool, but costs, components, the possibility of spellbook damage, all Gary. I ignored some of his rules, too, but he wrote all of that in the 1E DMG knowing that without carefully limiting magic, it would unbalance the game.     Or, we could just give fighters a limited wish spell each session. Or maybe two...</blockquote>

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