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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Majoru Oakheart" data-source="post: 6153016" data-attributes="member: 5143">I think that things like teleport are both resolving the situation AND scene reframing.The scene is framed by the DM.  He says there are orcs, they are angry and want to kill you.  This is the scene where a battle occurs.The wizard who casts a teleport is essentially saying "Alright, that scene is now over.  We are instead in a new scene where we are teleported into our inn rooms and we discuss a new plan for what to do next."  You "resolved" the combat scene(whether it is a satisfying resolution to the scene is another story) while simultaneously framing a new scene.It's still the player who is framing the new scene.Correct, both are scene reframing.  However, one is immediate and can't be stopped.  The other one requires the players to continue playing this scene until they can successfully escape and therefore have the opportunity to reframe the scene.  It essentially requires the DM to agree to the scene reframing by allowing the PCs to escape(given the number of resources he has at his disposal to stop a fleeing party).A teleport has no reasonable counter.  It says "I'm leaving and you can't stop me except with a very specific set of circumstances that are likely very contrived.  If you do them, we will know that you made a decision to specifically thwart my teleport".Fleeing let's the DM say "Yes, BUT..."  You successfully escape BUT in order to do so you need to defeat the 3 orcs guarding the exit.  Which is much better than the 30 you were running away from.  It also allows you to say no but without overtly trampling the decision.  There could be 30 more Orcs guarding the exit, which FEELS naturally part of the narrative.  It's more of a negotiation with the DM.  More of a "I'd like to escape, tell me what happens" vs "I escape".I think this is kind of the point.  The TONE of a scene is part of the framing of it.  When a scene is framed as a deadly combat and it turns out to be a scene instead about a bunch of orcs humorously being turned into chickens and the PCs walking away, you've successfully reframed the scene as something other than what it started as.Especially when you are the only person in the group capable of changing the scene like that.It does if there is only one Orc.  Also, although all those things are possible...none of them are likely except maybe the save.  For a counter spell/disruption, the DM must predict your polymorph in advance, have a spell caster amongst the orcs, have the appropriate spell prepared and unused, and use up an enemies action betting that this is the round you are planning on using the polymorph.  For a non-caster Orc to disrupt it, they need to still predict the spell in advance and waste their action betting on it but then hope you fail the(normally insanely easy) concentration check.  "Your spell component pouch is gone" is just telegraphing the fact that you are attempting to screw over the wizard.Of course, that's all assuming a 3.5e game.  More generically, there were less ways of stopping that same spell in 1e/2e.The key point here is that the spell skips the action resolution mechanics.  It says "Battle is when both sides attempt to reduce each other's HP to 0".  Spells like Teleport, Polymorph and the like say "Rather than playing the game everyone expects us to be playing, I'll skip that game and play my own.  While the fighter has a 60% chance to deal 10 damage and will have to hit the enemy 10 times in order to kill it while avoiding enemies attacks, I will cast a spell that has an 80% chance of just winning outright or a spell that has a 100% chance of ending the battle immediately."It's not much of a "scene" if it ends so quickly.  That's why you don't see a scene in a TV show where 2 people walk past each other in a hallway and say "Hi" and then cut away to a different scene.  It feels incomplete.  I don't like this when either fighters OR wizards do this.Also see above, if a scene is reframed into a different scene quickly enough then the scene IS the second scene.  In the same way that if a scene started in a movie and you saw the face of a vicious Orc with a battle helmet growling and it slowly zooms out until you can see that's all he's wearing and he's in a bathroom and looking into a mirror and starts talking about how he thinks he has the face down pat now....well, the scene was always meant to be a comedic scene with an Orc making faces in a mirror.  It just made you think it was a battle scene for a couple of seconds to trick you.It's similar with combats that get resolved by a spell immediately after it starts.Once again, the key is tone.  I believe the DM gets to set the tone as part of framing the scene(or at least gets to TRY to set the tone).  The mechanics should allow the DM to set the tone he wants with the least number of abilities for the players to dramatically change the tone.</blockquote>

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